DS major fail... wwyd? Totally pissed off

[Troublesometuesday]

In brief .....

DS was at RG London uni doing an engineering course.

In June, he told us he’d failed his degree. And whilst we we were shocked and disappointed, tried to figure out how best to support him.
Now, we finally know the truth of the situation, which is pretty shocking tbh...

-Failed a second year exam

• had four warnings about non-attendance at tutorials/practicals

-transferred onto ordinary degree at end of Yr2

We knew NONE of this!!!

Then, he failed two exams in final year and also failed his dissertation.

Now, whilst most of you will say, what an idiot.... my anger/fury/disappointment is not only directed at him, but also the fact that by treating students as adults, there is no way to intervene at all until it is too late.

To get a degree, DS has to go into 2nd year at another uni. So, never mind the fact that we have supported him fully for the past 3 years, he would get some funding for the coming year, but none at all for what would be the 5th year if a 3yr course....

Btw, at school he was a bright and able student who got 3 A’s - so, if ever there is a warning to other parents, this is it. They can lie, squander money, lie, don’t work, lie some more and fail then miserably.

I just don’t know what to do - of course I want him to achieve in life, but I am so hurt and can’t trust him any more.

Definitely stop funding him. He's had it way too easy.

If he wants to do another degree, he pays for it.

FWIW I funded myself through university and no doubt countless others on here have too.

It's actually very common for the 'high achievers' to suddenly dip in the second year at uni (google second year slump). DD2 did as well. (A*AAA at A level). Luckily she managed to pull it around but she also tried not to discuss it as she had never really experienced failure academically before and really didn't know how to handle it.
It sounds like he just buried his head in the sand and hoped it would go away.
I'd sit him down and have a really open discussion about what he wants to do, with no pressure on the academic achievements. He does need to decide for himself, but to know that you are there to talk through any areas he's struggling with. With DD2 I stressed that I would support her with anything but that she needed to take responsibility for accessing all the help that the Uni was able to give, including getting hold of tutors for areas she was struggling with as she'd gone way beyond the level I could help with.
If he is keen to restart at another Uni, then he needs to come up with the strategies to make sure he doesn't repeat the mistakes made so far, otherwise there's no point wasting the money on it.

I think parents should get feedback on attendance and grades given that they are obliged to fund it

Parents are not obliged or expected to fund it. The student can take a loan from the government for fees, and can also take a maintenance loan, which can be supplemented by working. If the op paid it was a choice not a requirement.

Totally disagree speakout. I don't think the OP sounds pushy at all.

Me too. And I think it is very normal for the lazy but bright to skive off a lot bit, not spend enough time and effort on work and then fuck up, and not want to tell their parents, regardless of how pushy or unpushy the parents are. You would have to have remarkably chill parents to be able to say 'I haven't been attending lectures, have 4 warnings about attendance, have dropped the (Hons) bit of my degree and failed exams which were not to hard for me, I just couldn't be arsed to study for them.' and have your parents be unperturbed.

You may be paying £8,000+ a year but this doesn't buy you any rights

In the vast majority of cases, the parents are not paying £8000 a year! This is a tuition loan, where parental income is not the determining factor, which the student repays on their income going above a certain amount. It's a graduate tax, and not the parents debt whatsoever.

A few people do choose to pay this upfront for their children, Martin Lewis of the Money site advises against this for % interest reasons, but if you do, obviously you can then make any payment contingent on results- it's such a shame (and I wouldn't think to do it but I might now) that he didn't share the 2nd year transcript of results with you, but perhaps he thought he could make it good in the 3rd year.

Maintenance loans are separate and dependent on parental income, though some parents pay nothing and the children have to work instead.

It is hard to know how much to micromanage and how much to leave them to it- I have a friend who has a joint account and sees exactly where her money goes, and looks at things like transcripts to help him get an overall good grade- that might feel very intrusive for some, but clearly there's a balance between not knowing absolutely anything and being really micro-managing.

There is a huge tension with parents 'expected' to pay maintenance (although as I say, this is not a legal obligation and many don't or pay under recommended amounts) and then not really kept informed. But the loan is not theirs so they should stop saying they have paid £8000 a year as in 95% of cases, they have not! If they have, that's their choice and perhaps need to make it conditional on success.

This post has really made me think about how I would approach this with my own children (probably to make me more, not less nosy)

University requires a great deal of independent study and students who have been driven to achieve by parents or the school up to a level really struggle with this. They would also struggle in a work environment. Some of them adapt, some don't.

Please try to talk to your son and don't push him into doing another year. I think working for a while would be just the thing he needs.!

FWIW I funded myself through university and no doubt countless others on here have too.

I don't know how people earn enough to pay rent and pay for food, bills, travel, clothes etc. Especially those studying science who have little spare time through the day.

It was your son’s responsibility to tell you Troublesome. You should be asking yourself, and him, why he felt he couldn’t.

This. The Uni treats its students like the adults they are. Whoever is funding their studies isn't really relevant, nor is it any of the Uni's business really.

So with all this, where are you all now? Have you spoken to him about what he sees as the road ahead?

Yanbu - he was deceitful by carrying on the sherade that all is fine and dandy whilst slowly drifting towards shit creek.

I think this is a real issue now that uni education requires large financial contributions from parents. Parents who are stumping up thousands a year are goong to understandably feel that there should be some reference to them, especially when things go wrong. But equally, the university is dealing with a fully legal adult, and therefore has no obligation to anyone other than that adult. Both parties are right, but I don't think the two positions can be reconciled

Parents have a choice whether to stump or not. If they do, it is their responsibility to deal with ensuring that their DC meets their expectations not that of academic staff.

Summersup - we didn’t pay fees upfront. His loan didn’t even cover accommodation, so we topped that up and paid living costs. He also worked during holidays, but bit termtime.

I agree with sunshineroo and others, there's so much help for people to take, retake, resit exams, he must either have really not cared, or really not engaged to be in this situation, or have been mentally struggling/drugs.

Even if you fail an exam in the second year, the uni is obliged to let you resit, usually at a capped mark- so it is likely he took that exam twice and failed twice before the degree was downgraded. The fact he then went on to fail several of his third year modules suggests either the work or the study is beyond him at this time point.

I wouldn't push him back into a second year of an engineering degree for this reason. I'd find out what he failed- was it the maths? That fails a lot of people. Failing your dissertation is actually quite hard, I haven't had a failing student for years, so I really do think you need to dig into what went wrong, rather than assume a change of institution would help.

I am sorry you’ve a huge shock but what you are suggesting is not reasonable.

As an academic what would you like me to do about students who are failing? Information regarding their progress is confidential, the same way it would be if your DS was working. How would the exception to confidentiality work? Any adult whose endeavour is financed by another person forfeits their right to confidentiality? So if a parent pays for an adult DCs medical treatment the doctor should deal with the parent? If a parent helps with an adult DC’s mortgage deposit, the bank should inform the parent of missed payments?

You can look for someone else to blame, but equally why were you, as a parent, aware of your DC’s significant, long term difficulties? The answer is because he is an adult and makes his own choices, including when and whom to confide in. You chose to fund his education, also an adult choice, he chose to squander it. I am sorry about that but he is the only one to blame for this choice.

Obviously with hindsight, it is easy to say we should have known. But I wasn’t expecting him to lie to me. We had what I thought was a good and open relationship.

carrotmama you may call it "a horrible attitude" I would call it treated an adult as an adult.

I have to admit I was living alone at 16 and put myself through university so I find it hard to fathom parents who are treating people in their 20s as needing to be constantly "managed".

I would be very interested to know if this man has had any kind of work experience. My 17 yr old has spent the summer in a paid summer job in a supermarket as well as volunteering with a nurse at a local hospital. She also trains for cross country with a team. She arranged all this by herself, she also drives herself everywhere. We are very close and I love her very much. I just think constantly rescuing and managing young adults is training them to be less responsible and expect rescue.

trouble I don't doubt you have paid out a lot of money and probably feel pretty awful this has occurred.

I just wanted to clarify that people's parents don't pay the £8-9000 tuition fees unless they want to, this seems to be a common mistake and may put people off going to uni, when in fact it's just a tax on future earnings.

Nevertheless, you are right to feel awful about this and to have wondered why he kept chatting about futures he probably knew he couldn't have (or perhaps he didn't know).

There are engineering apprenticeships which lead to degrees, but perhaps his heart isn't in engineering, who knows.

I was at uni 10 years ago. I worked every weekend for 3 years, all summer and 2-3 evening a week during term time.

I had lectures every day and literally every spare minute I had was spent studying. It was a long hard road, but my parents didn't contribute a penny.

**Roussette

When my DCs were at Uni, results and projections were online and I asked them to show me and talk me through it. I just kept questioning them to make sure they were on course for what they should achieve.**

I find it strange that he never showed you his results or that you never asked to see them. I was at uni not too long ago and after every year my parents would want to see my results.

What’s done is done. Please don’t be angry for too long.

Moveablefeast - he worked part-time through the last 3 years of school as I wanted him to value earning money...

Parents are not obliged or expected to fund it. The student can take a loan from the government for fees, and can also take a maintenance loan, which can be supplemented by working. If the op paid it was a choice not a requirement.

The amount of maintenance loan is dependent on parental income. You'd have to be an absolute shit to earn so much that your child can borrow a minimal amount of maintenance loan, and then refuse to sub them. It's a "choice" that few people would make.

The OP doesn't say she is paying tuition fees. She just says she is contributing £8K, which could very easily be living costs for her actual child who 2 months before he started this course was living entirely at her expense.

Personally I think parental income shouldn't have anything to do with what you can borrow for maintenance but it does and most people don't support their child until the last day of A levels and then tell them to do one.

OP very similar story with the son of some friends of ours

he had actually become addicted to online gaming and wasn't really paying attention to anything

he was very keen he should sort it all out himself, so he got a day job and studied on an evening thing to get a degree and now all is well. It did involve him living with his folks but he paid housekeeping and was given a chore list etc - and in many ways it was a better lesson in adulting than uni could ever be.

could that be an option for your son?

Movablefeast "I just think constantly rescuing and managing young adults is training them to be less responsible and expect rescue."

yes. and tbh I think uni is a terrible set up unless you are on a full time course - like medicine or something - and if your parents are giving you money, it doesn't teach much really. I had to work as many hours as possible when I was at uni and I'm glad of that.

Fairy - I think when you pay on excess of £8000 per year, it shouldn’t be unreasonable to know if things are going tits-up

It was your son's - not the university's - responsibility to tell you.

But he did lie to you and you are right to be pissed off at that. Don’t deflect that anger at the university though. Learn the right lesson from it, your DS is an adult and he needs to take responsibility for the consequences of his actions. Do NOT push into doing another engineering degree or another degree at all. Let him sort his life out. If he asks you for more money then that is a separate issue and you need to take into account the fact that he wasted a lot of money and lied about it before you give him any more.

Totally agree there is no responsibility on the academic staff. But Parents have a choice whether to stump or not Do they? What are their choices? If they dont fund, the dc can't access other lending streams. At 17, when applying, they are unable to get a credit agreement (and would have no way to repay). So the parents choice is to stump up the cash, or tell their dc they can't go to university. Not much of a choice.