A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

[Littleham]

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

Cauchy, this is very interesting. I completely understand why employer demand for good mathematicians is very strong. This is a technological world and real mathematical talent is rare. However what is the demand for weaker graduates who would not have got onto maths degrees a decade ago?

DS was at a school where about 70 each year took double maths, and so you were very aware how good you were, or put another way, how good the "real" mathematicians were. About 90% would have got A in single maths and roughly half the A in FM so presumably all would have been viable candidates should they have applied for a maths degree. Very few outside the top set would have done. Most instead would have opted for engineering/physics/computer science/economics where again at the top end, Universities prefer double maths. Based on DS' thinking I assume two reasons. First that they would not have seen themselves as good enough for a pure maths degree. Second that maths alone 7 days a week would have felt too much. Top ranked economics degrees are essentially maths and economics degrees anyway, and I assume that holds true for a lot of STEM subjects. Should he and others have been less quick to dismiss maths as an option? Not least is there a danger that the natural mathematicians grab the firsts leaving their competent colleagues having to work very hard to achieve the important 2.1.

Personal experience needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, but you seem to have plenty of first-hand experience Littleham and DD not thinking oxbridge anyway, so I don't think it's dangerous to add some dust to the balance:

• One DC did MFL oxbridge with one A-level MFL and was not alone in that, 2nd language was ab initio (and while shooting down myths, another of the 4 A levels was Art, that oft-cited-on-mumsnet non-facilitating A-level subject). That said, ab initio IS tough (& rewarding because of that). But you might know all this already with a DC doing MFL.
• Another DC did Music oxbridge, diverse combination of A-levels (less rigorous and cohesive than your DD, hats off to her; the kind of mix that would have elicited a few squeals of horror and predictions of doom had I asked here); with regard to your DD's subjects of choice, one college used to express a pref for German, and maths/science were common A levels among peers of my DC. Only thing: how is DD's piano playing? Tough without it I suspect (=don't know how they manage).
• This is not just about oxbridge, both DC got 5 offers meaning that other universities were OK about their mixes of A levels.

The big issue for your DD at the moment (unless school will allow FM as a fifth) seems to be whether she is likely in 18 months' time to want to apply for maths - lots of useful advice on that upthread. Two things: (i) come September, which subject(s) would DD be most sad to see classmates go off to without her? (i.e. which subject(s) can she really not bear to drop?); (ii) it's early days, but a revealing exercise here was to try and write a personal statement for each option that appealed at the time.

YY to the trial personal statement thing Cleebourg suggested. We use that too! Really opens up frank discussion.

This is going to sound harsh but on MN I sometimes wonder if subject choice is blamed when LOS don't access their first uni choice ... when actually it was something else (poor statement, limited references, predicted grades especially if mum chose STEM for them and they just can't hack it ... ). Easier to blame the subject.

I think what needmoresleep is describing is one of the dangers of superselective schools.

The vast majority of maths graduates in the UK would not have achieved A A in maths and further maths: only 5 universities or so require AA. So people from middle sets would have been fine doing maths even at many top 10 universities. If they didn't want to do maths anyhow, fine. But being put off maths even though you are well above the level required by universities because you are surrounded by better people is a problem with superselective schools. Putting some universities on pedestals and believing they are significantly better because of historical reputations is also an issue. (E.g. Durham maths only came around 20th in the research assessment last year. Yet many students would choose Durham maths over other RGs believing it is much better.)

And I say this as somebody who went to a superselective school and put most of my contemporaries off applying for maths because they were nowhere as good as me. I was top of my year at Oxbridge so the comparison they were making was completely unreasonable. Meanwhile pupils were actively encouraged to apply for e.g. natural sciences at Cambridge when they really wanted to do maths on the basis that it was harder to get into maths and Cambridge was more important than the subject.

However what is the demand for weaker graduates who would not have got onto maths degrees a decade ago?

The demand for maths graduates is growing globally. Twenty years ago we were producing far too few, especially relative to Asia. Of course graduates from courses requiring "only" ABB don't get the very top jobs in banking etc but there is still plenty of graduate work for them. Employment statistics are generally pretty good for maths degrees.

Cauchy YY to the historic thing.

Also it doesn't go RG ... and "the rest".
There are smaller non RG in the top 10 for specific subjects and many layers of complexity.
Eg. my examples of the IoE and UEA. Both very well respected. Just not big enough or all round enough to be RG.

Fabulous Maths department at school. Have had a good chat with the Head of Maths. Apparently dd3 is more than able at Maths, apparently a natural. She would very much like to see dd in FM so will talk it over with her at school. Teacher doesn't advise 5 subjects as it would be too much stress and I really agree with that opinion.

She also said that dd has the ability to catch up in a Maths degree without FM and that in her opinion dd wouldn't be one of the students to drop out - it would just make year 1 harder.

Teacher is going to point out the plus and minus points to dd and then we have both agreed to go along with dd's informed choice.

I feel very happy with this outcome as I know that I have done everything I can to point out any possible pitfalls. Over to her.

to everyone on this thread for putting up with my angst.

Cleebourg - I don't know about Oxford but at Cambridge grade 5 piano is expected (and explicitly required by some colleges). DD1 got that under her belt a couple of years ago just in case, and she is still not quite decided as to whether she will apply but at least she knows she can if she wants (she has 3 grade 8s also, plus doing grade 8 theory). No piano would make things very tricky not just at oxbridge but at conservatoire (although the formal requirement of days of yore isn't such A Thing these days).

To you for being a wonderful mum. Guiding your dd without stifling her choices. You're setting her up for both success and satisfaction/happiness.

DD has grade 7 piano. (Taking grade 8 next year). Has got grade 8 flute. Currently teaching herself to play a ukulele. It arrived in the post a couple of weeks ago and I thought 'what on earth is that'?

DH and I have been known to watch maths and physics lectures on youtube for fun - I am a bit eclipse obsessed at the moment, no idea what his excuse is! I wondered if it is worth suggesting this to your DD to see how engaging she does or doesn't find them. Also interested to know what her instrument is as I think this impacts a lot on social and / or professional music opportunities later on. I am in Scotland and am definitely glad we have a broader curriculum at this stage.

Thanks. Good ideas about the lectures and writing mini personal statements. Might help provide some clues. In fact lots of good ideas on this thread for dc's that don't know what they want to do yet.

Sorry, more derailing...

Cauchy Do you have any other particular recommendations for mid ranking unis apart from Swansea. DS is likely to get an A or A* in his maths but only a B and C in his other subjects. He is unlikely to get any lower. Keele seems good but it's hard to know.

DS is calling Swansea later. Their admissions dept have been friendly and helpful in the past.

Sorry, I meant to add that DS is looking at mid ranking unis for maths (G100?)

This ("it's cool, we used a yellow font!!") leaflet from RG universities is comprehensive and makes more sense than many a MN rant hearsay:

www.russellgroup.org/InformedChoices-latest.pdf

How about Aberystwyth for maths?

She needs to think about her career ideally. Some employers for better paid jobs recruit from a limited number of good universities so in a sense it can make sense to work your way back from that - which good universities could she get into with which subjects eg if she is brilliant at maths do it but if not that might be a harder A level in which to excel for many so could rule out some good universities whereas if she did a different facilitating subject she might get into them. (One of my children (same stage as yours) is probably going to do music A level by the way - has a music scholarship etc although I very much doubt he will read it at university - it is one of his choice with history, geography and economics)

And as Jilly mentions, not all the subjects have to be facilitating. The RG guide is clear on this.
So music, for example, is fine alongside other subjects.

I get this confusion a lot with parents! Once had one who wanted her daughter to read art history at a RG (family business) and was worried she wasn't allowed to take art!

She took an online test & it came out as....

Your Career Type: The Analytical Thinker

Analytical Thinkers are reserved, quiet persons. They like to get to the bottom of things - curiosity is one of their strongest motives. They want to know what holds the world together deep down inside. They do not really need much more to be happy because they are modest persons. Many mathematicians, philosophers and scientists belong to this type.

Does that sound right? At lrast it sounds like a good match for maths.

Cauchy thank you for your post above. DS' idea that he is "not good at maths" is pretty ingrained. He thought hard about whether he was up to taking FM at A level and then got an A*. He has ended up taking additional maths courses in his first year, mainly as a way of avoiding essay writing, but this has left him with a dilemma, as he can't work out whether having periods where he has found the content hard is normal or more proof he "isn't good at maths". He is not particuarly keen on second year options which involve essay writing, and does not want to take banking or accountancy options, which essentially leaves maths. Attractive in that a strong basis in maths opens the door to most Masters degrees in Economics, and should make him very employable. (He still has the option to essentially graduate with a maths degree, albeit from the economics faculty.) But the confidence issue remains.

This is perhaps not helped by the fact that a couple of his friends, who are taking maths based degrees, seem to be struggling. I wonder, and again anecdotal, if there is the reverse of the "superselective problem" which is an ethnic one. Chinese pupils are assumed by schools to be brilliant at maths, but may hit problems when they get to university, either because the step up is tough, or because they discover they are not that interested in just studying maths.

I suspect DS concerns are:

1. Until he gets his first year results he can't work out if he is good enough to carry on with maths. He has found some bits tough, and some straightforward, but does not know where that places him.
2. The binary nature of maths results. Even in my day, when firsts in other faculties were as rare as hen's teeth, the maths students seemed to get either firsts or thirds. So a fear that taking more maths if you are not supremely gifted, runs the risk of working very hard and still doing badly.

He did note that hard work meant some of his peers did better at A level than they were expected to, and that others, who did not work hard enough, did less well. I assume that the same applies at University level, assuming you are "good enough" in the first place. So its just for him to work out that he is "good enough".

Chinese pupils are assumed by schools to be brilliant at maths, but may hit problems when they get to university, either because the step up is tough, or because they discover they are not that interested in just studying maths.

Some pupils, particularly from those from certain ethnic backgrounds, do well at school mathematics by studying very hard and practising or learning every past question. This works on the current A levels which ask relatively easy and repetitive questions but clearly this strategy doesn't work so well at university, when the exam questions vary much more! It is noticeable that students from certain cultures struggle to make this transition.

(He still has the option to essentially graduate with a maths degree, albeit from the economics faculty.)

There is no university in the UK which is letting people graduate with maths degrees from economics faculties. High maths content, yes. Access to specific financial/economics maths graduate programmes, yes. Maths degree, no. The requisite pure maths content is missing.

Even in my day, when firsts in other faculties were as rare as hen's teeth, the maths students seemed to get either firsts or thirds. So a fear that taking more maths if you are not supremely gifted, runs the risk of working very hard and still doing badly.

The statistics don't support this. At any of the top universities in quantitative subjects 25-35% get firsts, 35-45% get 2:1s and the rest get 2:2s or thirds. I have not known a very hard working student get less than a 2:1. I have however known many students who found maths different and harder than they expected, so disengaged from the course and ended up with 2:2s and thirds.

Until he gets his first year results he can't work out if he is good enough to carry on with maths. He has found some bits tough, and some straightforward, but does not know where that places him.

This sounds normal. In my experience it is often the better students who find things tough, as they are trying to understand everything, while weaker students just accept that they don't understand some parts. In general most students find that they need the first year results to place themselves.

needmoresleep That's a really interesting post.
When looking at Unis for DD we didn't notice a 1st/third split in the types of Degrees offered.

What we did notice was a big difference in the amount of firsts awarded by some universities - maybe it's just a marketing ploy by some to award loads of firsts to keep student satisfaction rates up, who knows??
DD is also worried about finding maths too hard but the drop out rates didn't seem to indicate anything in particular - surely if courses were 'too hard' there would be more drop outs?

When she was attended open days and applicant days the general message was that you should expect to find it very hard at times, that if you work hard then you should be fine and that your A'Level maths result is a good indicator of how you'll do.
If that really is the case then she will be ok.

Didn't refresh and xposted with cauchy

Cauchy That's a really useful post - thank you.

Cauchy, thank you so much. It's very much up to DS but I am pleased that he has chosen to discuss with us. The trouble is that I'm not sure we can give him good advice. Your last paragraph is particuarly useful. At the point where he was finding it particuarly tough he asked his class teacher, who met him for coffee to discuss study methods etc, which was kind. Things seemed to improve after that. At the moment he is reasonably optimistic and is happy to wait and see how well he does in the summer, though is planning to stay at University over Easter to work in the library. The likely grade distribution is also useful. From what he says the problem is not so much that the content is hard but that a lot of concepts are very similar, so something that could be learned.

However this perhaps reinforces earlier points about maths requiring a strength of character. Most students expect to understand lectures. However with maths it seems that you take frantic notes and then spend the next day trying to understand what you have been taught. Even the ability to accept you don't understand everything requires a certain character. Add in the insecurity of not knowing where you are, with some of your friends in the second year really struggling, and it is a big change from school where the results in maths tests were pretty predictable.

You are right, of course. It would not be a maths degree as such but essentially a degree where 75% of courses are some form of applied maths/econometrics. Lots of derivatives of derivatives.

Thank you again.

However with maths it seems that you take frantic notes and then spend the next day trying to understand what you have been taught. Even the ability to accept you don't understand everything requires a certain character.

And this is exactly why maths and physics graduates are so much in demand: they have the ability to identify what they do and don't understand, and assimilate a large amount of material very quickly.

What we did notice was a big difference in the amount of firsts awarded by some universities - maybe it's just a marketing ploy by some to award loads of firsts to keep student satisfaction rates up, who knows??

Yes, some universities are inflating their firsts to improve student satisfaction rates. For maths Bristol is well-known for doing this.