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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

176 replies

Littleham · 24/03/2015 15:23

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

OP posts:
Littleham · 24/03/2015 22:51

Music - her teacher said she is a strong all rounder / particularly loves composition.

German - likes the language more than the literature.

OP posts:
ancientbuchanan · 24/03/2015 22:53

Op, music is not, in the jargon, a facilitating subject.

If she really really wants to do it at HE, continue . If she doesn't, think long and hard about it.

If she is thinking of doing anything like sciences, economics, maths, and has the ability and the opportunity, she would be silly not to do FM. I know a fee recent graduates and alas drop outs from those subjects who didn't do it dvd all wish they had. Ok, at top RG, but it sounds as though that's what she is rightly aiming for.

In my generation and also in some of the years above Ds, the people who found it hardest to cope with their subjects per se were the theologians and the mathematicians. The first lot had to destroy academically a lot of assumptions and ways if thinking and found it emotionally draining. The second couldn't cope with being set problems that neither they nor others could do. It's a very different approach in both cases from the school one.

noblegiraffe · 24/03/2015 22:59

If she likes the language more than the literature she could consider a maths degree which incorporates study abroad. She could spend the third year of a 4 year course studying maths at a German university.

Littleham · 24/03/2015 23:05

I'll suggest these ideas to Miss Stubborn. I know that her Maths teacher would love her to do FM. She does have one more meeting with sixth form.

Sometimes I wish they could be a bit older before they choose options, but maybe it wouldn't make any difference.

OP posts:
summerends · 25/03/2015 04:35

ancientbuchanan music is the one that she prefers so difficult to give up if there is a chance she wants to do a music degree, not to do it would basically exclude that option. Music would give her essay writing skills as well .

Littleham basically she sounds capable of doing Maths / FM and probably should but, as Needmoresleep has said, she is not sounding enamoured enough with maths to want to do it as the principle part of a degree.
BTW I don't suppose her school allow the FM/Maths combination pupils to start off with five to keep her options open at least for the first term?

Just to add to the complications- by not wanting to do physics she is reducing any options to pursue a science STEM degree, she is also excluding the music &physics degree combinations (including sound engineering). TBH, if she is going for a single science physics is a more logical option.

German is the easiest to pursue as an extra option (language only) at degree level without A level so probably would be the best one to drop without closing down later options , particularly as she does not like literature so would not really appreciate a MFL degree.

BTW UCL is another university that allows a mix of subjects so worth looking at their degrees. Might give her some ideas.

cauchy · 25/03/2015 08:56

One thing that would concern me is that she doesn't like physics enough to consider doing it at A level. A big fraction of undergraduate mathematics is physics. This physics is very different from GCSE physics but I would have alarm bells ringing if a prospective maths undergraduate told me they didn't find physics interesting at all.

Maths courses are forced to take students who don't have any science A levels apart from maths but these students often struggle with parts of the course which involve mathematical modelling for sciences. They typically find their third year options much more limited, as they try to avoid applications of maths to sciences.

Note that physics and engineering degrees are not usually accessible without both maths and physics A levels so doing physics A level on its own is not particularly useful.

Needmoresleep · 25/03/2015 09:35

Littleham

Your post refers to her favourite subjects. Clearly your daughter is a gifted all-rounder, and clearly teachers in different departments want to teach her. However you seem to be starting from the premise that she takes her favourite subjects at A level and then continues with one of them at University.

There are lots of threads about state/private University access etc. I don't know if this is an example but most of DC's contempories will have considered life after University. This does not necessarily mean linking University study directly with future career. Some will have decided they are humanities/liberal arts type people and will want to pursue that avenue at University. Others are gifted at languages but talk about following this with a law conversion course. Chemists consider banking/management consulting as a final destination if they don't find career opportunities within their field. Some will have a passion for philosphy or history of art. Though the vast majority seem to choose something quasi-vocational such as engineering, law, medicine, economics or computer science.

These are lucky kids in selective London private schools. Even if their parents are not obviously sucessful (us), their contemporaries have parents who run things or are well known in creative or other professions. Everything seems possible, so you aim high and treat A levels as building blocks. You consider which subjects hold sufficient interest to allow youself to immerse yourself in them at University for 7 days a week for three years. (Hence my earlier comment about maths. There are lots of degrees with a high maths content but you need to be passionate about maths itself to read pure maths.) You balance how well you are likely to do in a subject (and interest obviously plays a big part), the prestige of the University you are likely to get into (so you might be better off reading MFL and going to a "better" University and doing well followed by a law conversion course, thangoing to a less prestigious University to read law) and the type of University (Campus, City).

What really interests your daughter? Will she read popular articles on new developments in, say, neuroscience, what documentaries does she watch, is she fascinated by German society and how it differs from the UK, are tickets for a classical concert her ideal birthday treat?

Failing all else could you try some career profiling? DD had one done through school as part of choosing A level options by a firm called Futurewise. All it did for her was confirm that her academic profile and her interests matched her chosen career, but other parents seemed impressed, with one or two surprising ideas being thrown up.

Once you have decided on a University subject/area and have considered the doors that such a subject might open, A level choice becomes easier. Your daughter is lucky in that it sounds as if she could do most subjects. If say, she decided neuroscience is something that really interests her, she looks at degrees and works back. So perhaps Maths/Chemistry/Biology and one of Music/German. She then finds an outlet for her music, or finds a private German exchange. (If you can afford it I can recommend Geothe Institut summer camps. Three weeks language in the morning and well run activities in the afternoon. She would then sit an EU language qualification which is acceptable to UCAS.)

SylvaniansAtEase · 25/03/2015 09:50

Echoing everything that Needmoresleep has said, and with a further point - taking the above into consideration and stepping back a bit - if your DD is thinking of Maths as a degree subject, and obviously the aim is to enter the best university possible (and therefore the highest grades are required), then the answer is straightforward - she shouldn't be considering 4 A-levels (which runs the risk of spreading thin and dropping a grade, or a *) without one of them definitely being FM.

If the clash is between FM and German, German should go!

Think about it: she does NOT want to come out with A,A,A,B or A*,A,B,B in Maths, Chem, German, Music and be applying for top Maths courses with the double whammy of not having FM and having dropped grades slightly as a result of doing 4.

cauchy · 25/03/2015 10:15

If the clash is between FM and German, German should go!

Not necessarily. Doing maths and further maths puts a lot of eggs in one basket. Many students find sixth form maths hard and decide against doing maths at university, particularly those who aren't doing other sciences. Having maths and german rather than maths and FM leaves more non-maths options open for university.

Unfortunately all choices will close off some university courses and make others more difficult to get into. The important thing is to make choices knowing their consequences and to try to leave as many options open as possible.

Vicarscat · 25/03/2015 10:25

If she doesn't like the idea of studying German literature, there is little point thinking about a German course at one of the top unis, so I would drop that.
Music at uni is not great from a careers point of view. I would just keep that on as a hobby. Eg do gr 8 theory privately, plus her usual instrumental lessons.
Then she can focus on science and maths, which are way better from a careers point of view.

squizita · 25/03/2015 10:28

What Needmoresleep said. 100%. A 1st or 2:1 in any respected academic subject opens the door to conversion courses and/or graduate training with top notch firms.
A 2:2, from a bright student who made choices based on stats and what they thought they "should" do (usually means they don't really want to do STEM subjects tbh but feel they should) ... not so much.

squizita · 25/03/2015 10:32

...oh and as others say, of she's umming and aahing about further maths - think twice. It's not an umm and aah subject.
With the best will in the world, I've seen/counseled numerous tears on results day because people took FM, good grades but not 100% decided and got AAAD. Guess what the D was in?

At my school we interview FM students to guarantee they know what they're getting into!

summerends · 25/03/2015 10:33

Lots of very good advice (including mine Smile). I think it is easier at this stage to pick out those who are likely to want pursue pure mathematics (and possibly English Lit or History) than for other subjects since maths (or English or History) basically monopolises their interests.

TBF most 15 / 16 year olds have not experienced more advanced sciences or the literature of MFLs to give a taste of a potential degree so may find it difficult to have developed a strong interest at this stage, especially before GCSEs.

I suppose as Cauchy has pointed out it is knowing which degree options she would least like to close down and be realistic about what the degree content of a subject such as maths entails.

squizita · 25/03/2015 10:34

Sorry dripping here.

YY to taking 3. 3 x A* is better than AAAB for uni entry. And easier time/pressure wise.

squizita · 25/03/2015 10:44

Vicars I know 2 barristers, a solicitor, 2 civil servants and a banker who read music. A career as a musician is a bit "fantasy" (though someone also on that course is now the uk's best loved choir master) ... but a 2:1 or better in a traditional subject (including) is "currency" which can be cashed in ... law schools seem especially keen (decoding, memory, performance and presentation, logic). Smile

Many musicians can't bear to leave their beloved art to the weekend so end up poor. Grin

There are of course double honours degrees ... I did this. Bloody hard but kept options open for arty me and career me. In the end it worked out nicely for me and I earn very well because I always kept in mind that balance/compromise.

Vicarscat · 25/03/2015 11:15

Squiz - my strong impression is that things are a lot harder now than they used to be. Back in the day lots of people just chose the subject they enjoyed most at school and studied it at uni, with little thought about what they would do after college. As long as you had a degree, any degree, from a decent uni you would get a decent job. It's much tougher than that now. NB law is a poor option these days - the course might take a musician (why not, as long as they pay), but a music degree is unlikely to help a student obtain a training contract in a law firm.
Young people are more savvy about what they study these days, because they need to be. You also don't want to waste time studying for longer than necessary, because it is so expensive now.

squizita · 25/03/2015 12:16

Don't I know it ... DH is a barrister.

I work (in part) in careers and guidance including tracking students for 5 years post 6th form. Music really is ok- at least comparable with most other subjects. Smile
But every time I go on MN I am astounded (not in this case) by parents who wrongly think crap grades in STEM from a second rate uni are better than excellent grades in humanities from Russell Groups in terms of careers.

Vicarscat · 25/03/2015 12:22

Squiz - sorry to derail thread, but are you saying that taking music at degree level is an ok option in terms of getting a future non-music related job? Eg going into a management scheme or whatever?

NB I recently met an English graduate from a top uni, who had only managed to find a job as a cleaner.

squizita · 25/03/2015 12:24

Oh and some of those people are young. Smile I'm old enough to know the people who do the interviews now, sadly.

My golden advice for aspiring lawyers is don't do any old law degree. Conversion might cost more but (1) specialisation = cash (eg Chem + law = incredibly employability) (2) law degrees are ten a penny and vary wildly in quality/reputation and (3) if you realise you hate law (because you didn't know what it entails as many don't) you have a transferable degree after 3 years.

But then again I think apprenticeship in jobs such as accountancy is incredibly under used especially by the middle class and have seen kids go further in the city with it than via uni.

squizita · 25/03/2015 12:28

It depends on the uni and grades.

I know plenty of "drop outs" of all subjects and smart kids who work in Mcdonald etc ... All used by parents to scare kids into STEM or vocational degrees.

Grade + Uni + work place skills ... The 3rd is often lacking in artistic students who dreamed of creative heaven.

I have found MN to be STEM obsessed. More so than the employers I work with etc.

squizita · 25/03/2015 12:30

...sorry finally - nothing wrong with a vocational degree if the person knows what they're getting into!
Engineering, nursing, accounting all seem to do this.
Medicine, law, veterinary all not so much. Kids see only the status, not the reality of grades aside, can I do it?

FuckkityUp · 25/03/2015 13:40

I was suprised that admission requirements for maths are so much higher than for other courses at the same universities. DDs predicted (and expected) grades would get her into higher ranked Uni's if she was wanting to do something like chemistry rather than maths. If she wanted to do MFL then she could go to an even better university.

The requirements for BA French at Bristol are only ABB but A*AA for a BSc in Maths. (Less a grade if you have FM). That's a whopping two grade difference. You have to go down the rankings to get an ABB requirement for Maths. Unis such as Swansea and Brunel ask for ABB for Maths - I'm sure they are good Uni's but they don't have anything like the same prestige as places like Bristol.

I hope employers will realise this in future

polkadottyme · 25/03/2015 13:54

This is something that happen to one of my dear relative who is doing AS. This is more of a tale of someone who didn't know what career let alone degree to do. He got 8A*2A gcse all boys independent school. Didn't have a clue to what to pick at AS apart from 2 he liked maths and biology. The careers adviser gave him a few career paths suited to him from the result of a questionnaire which were, bio mechanic, bio med, investment fund manager, actuary. With this in mind he thought he would choose A level that would suit economics degree in investment route and bio mechanic remember boy don't know what he want to do. This way he thought would be best of both worlds he picked AS subjects which were maths, physics, economics and physics. By Xmas he hated economics so basically investment route career path is down the pan, he went to a few uni open days about bio med but without chemistry is not possible. He really enjoys quantum mechanics part of physics is really floating his boat and can see himself doing a degree in it. However he is aiming Lse durham and imperial without FM he doesn't look strong on paper compared probably to other candidates. He has to carry on all 4 of his A levels and is stuck with it. He wants to drop one do AS maths instead but school won't allow. He is rather disspointed wish he had swapped econmics for FM earlier on when he could but he dithered and didn't. But to be honest even if he wanted to be in investment , actuary taking economics degree at top uni think he would be disadvantaged not doing FM. So really by him trying to satisfy both career paths he is now not strong In either career paths for top uni. He should be fine with some of RG uni and good non RG uni but not the most competitive ones. Lse imperial which he was aiming at just because of FM. Choosing wrong AS subjects. And maybe career advice too. Sad

cauchy · 25/03/2015 14:04

The requirements for BA French at Bristol are only ABB but AAA for a BSc in Maths.*

But many other courses at Bristol want A*AA - Engineering, Economics, History etc. The requirements for MFL are anomalously low because of the shortage of MFL candidates.

There isn't that much difference between maths courses at the top 25 universities (although the top few courses are definitely harder) and somebody would be ill-advised to study maths if they can't get an A in A level maths and As in related subjects.

Universities with lower entry requirements often don't offer maths or physics at all because it's not sensible for somebody with Bs or below to carry on with these subjects.

squizita · 25/03/2015 14:07

Fuckk yep and some really name changed in the last 5 years due to dodgy dealings unis thrive on students who are B graders with maths. They get second rate tuition frankly because maths is a hard degree and employers want students who really want to do it not people just doing it because mum told them to iyswim.
It's almost like RADA vs paid for stage school iyswim. People will pay for crap, but the elite want a "cut above".

VERY tough on good mathematicians who aren't total genius though.
Other subjects have thus strata well provided for. Maths not so much. There are good ones out there but also I've heard horror stories.

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