A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

[Littleham]

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

A degree in maths leaves many options for jobs open. It does not matter to most employers that you spent 20-30% of your time doing music or german - this is often viewed as a positive because you have skills in areas that many STEM students don't (writing, languages etc). Obviously it does matter if you want to do research in maths but that option would still be possible by entering a masters programme and "catching up".

Those with maths degree go into (amongst other things) accountancy, banking, management consultancy, actuarial work, statistics, industrial mathematical modelling, engineering mathematics, teaching, patent work, law (after graduate conversion), GCHQ (encryption work), IT careers,....

Most of my own students are hired straight out of MMath or PhD for very high paying, fast track positions.

I don't BTW agree that STEM students at Oxbridge/LSE/UCL/Imperial/Warwick/etc work harder than those at other RGs but I think this debate has been had on other threads. (In my experience the bottom 40% of Cambridge students aren't really engaged with their subjects or working enough.)

Sorry Cauchy, more than happy to be corrected. Just some comments that the work expected, particuarly at one well known and regarded University, does not seem to be particuarly demanding. But then I am surprised at how hard DS is expected to work in Yr 1. His University will require 10-20% to repeat their second year so presumably they too have a problem with some of the year group not working hard enough.

I agree that breadth is likely to be attractive. Particuarly written skills and languages. However with maths aren't employers looking for depth as well. Ie you are of more interest if you have done well on the sort of course that has required A*A in MathsFM and where you have spent 70-80% of your time studying maths. As opposed to the joint degree being discussed.

GCHQ is not too far away from us. I'll try working backwards to see if she fancies anything on their website. There are a variety of language and maths roles. No music obviously.

Would a degree that was a 50/50 split between maths and music be unpopular with employers?

Cauchy DS is thinking of Lincoln University. It has a brand new maths degree and department but it looks good. It offers year in industry and MMaths. DS should easily get an A (possibly an A*) in his maths but BC in his other A levels. (Chemistry and physics) which limits his choices a lot. He is a lovely lad who works hard. He really doesn't know what he wants to do despite 'Headstart' courses, numerous taster days, lots of work experience and lots of thought. He does enjoy maths though.

If he goes there,and makes sure he does well, will he be employable afterwards? It's such an unknown.

Littleham sorry again for the derail.

Maths with German/Music (as offered by some universities named above) is 80% maths.

Maths and Music would be more like 50% of each.

A Maths with X degree would be more attractive to some employers than Maths and X, but obviously institution, degree class, experience would also play a role. Rather few employers actually need specific undergraduate maths content. Those that do would tend to hire people with masters or PhDs anyhow. E.g. masters in statistics or actuarial work, masters in financial maths are increasingly popular. PhDs in mathematical physics are in high demand by the City.

hello: " I don't think she is unusual in not knowing what she wants to do later (well at least not in her immediate peer group)"

She's not. And those who do know may change their minds. Before A levels start, after they start, at university, post university (done all those around here but that's not to say I would recommend it, too too grey hair inducing). She sounds a sparky, open-minded, talented girl.

oops, that should have said littleham

Does her school produce good results at A level Music?
My dd is doing A level music and is traveling to another school for that.
Head and teachers do amazing work with them and her results are showing.

Ahem. They would be running it just for her (although it is possible that someone from another school will join sixth form). Amazing that they are willing to run the course. The music teachers are very enthusiastic / good. There was a girl a couple of years back that got a B.

Cauchy, but does this not take us back full circle. Maths degrees are useful, really useful, especially in an increasingly technological world where only a small proportion are sufficiently talented to follow the detail. However most Universities will be expecting applicants to offer FM at least to AS.

Looking back at my daughter's profile two bits of advice are included:

A level choice should be based on:

1. Subjects you find interesting and enjoyable
2. Subjects you are good at and which suit your style of learning
3. Subjects that fit into your future plans.

Then they say the profile was based on aptitude personality and interests:

1. Aptitude is unlikley to change
2. Personality is less fixed
3. Interests can change substantially.

The profile suggests that DD's nightmare would be working outdoors using her hands. So she is not going to be a gardener. (Probably right. I think the ony time she has every planted anything was in Yr 3 gardening club!)

Thanks Cleebourg - very reassuring. It is a tricky dilemma for parents.

StickyOutEars - I can't seem to find the Lincoln course on unistats. I wonder why?

Can you do one of these profiles online NeedsMoreSleep?

Littleham. There are no stats because it's a brand new course starting Sep 2015 - they have recieved a substantial HEFCE grant (nearly 7 million for Lincolns new Maths and Physics Department) They will only have 30 students the first year with a full compliment of lecturers.
I've trawled around lots of much higher ranked RG unis with my DS's elder siblings but I thought Lincoln came across extremely well. DS is worried about what employers will think.

No idea. We just have the one the school organised. As I said the only use for us was that it confirmed that DDs interests, aptitudes and personality lined up. The top two out of the 21 suggestions were GP and hospital doctor. I guess it might be useful if she does not get a place at medical school as she then has a check list of careers like geneticist that she might consider.

As far as I know it involved quite a lot of tests and a one-to-one interview. I did meet mums whose DC did not have much ideas what they wanted to do and who found it useful to be be given some pointers and suggestions. Especially the importance of elements like creativity in a future career. DD does not seem to want to make things, full stop. Nor does she seem interested in policy making. However strong scores for something caring. It also provided the A level subjects most normally required for specific degrees and the standard Tariff or Grade range. For DD three sciences and maths keeps almost all doors open.

Others may be able to recommend different firms. I also have no idea how much it cost.

New departments and new courses have all kinds of teething issues. In the case of Lincoln they have around half a dozen lecturers, from a very narrow range of mathematics disciplines. These lecturers are not at a level to be appointed at higher tier universities.

By contrast somewhere like Swansea is long-established with 25+ staff, spanning many fields in mathematics. They take ABB-BBB at A level, which means that they would take ABC (points equivalent to BBB).

I think Lincoln has some slick marketing and is trying to create a market for the less high achieving students in maths/physics but it's a lot safer to stick with a well-established course.

However most Universities will be expecting applicants to offer FM at least to AS.

No, they're not. Even at the top 10 universities they cannot and do not insist on this because they wouldn't be able to fill their places (apart from the very top few universities.) Around 50% of students enter RG maths courses with no further maths. Not having FM makes the course harder in the first year but it does not affect the final year marks. Employers don't care less whether a student did FM or not if they have a maths degree from a top 20 course.

Interested to see where you end up with this as I have a similar DD. We are looking from the other angle that you can have a career in music without a music degree but to apply maths professionally you need a maths degree. That said I am a chartered accountant specialised in financial services and I tend to think maths is a bit narrow for this.

Cauchy Thanks for that information. It's very useful and exactly the type of thing we want to know. Swansea looks great but unfortunately they are not making BBB offers, only ABB offers this year (maybe BBB contextualised or if you have FM? ) I'll phone them again to double triple check. Keele offers ABC so DS is looking at that too.

DS is adementthe he doesn't want to risk clearing - He is my 4th DC and all his siblings are currently at Uni but all at RG unis (medicine/sciences) so he's well aware of the process.
It seems much more of a critical discision choosing which uni when you are looking at lower ranked universities.

littleham sorry again for derailing

Typo. adamant not addamenthe.

Sticky not all non-RG unis are lower ranking either. Size and various other aspects matter too (eg UEA matches RG in some faculties - Env and EAS for example... but not others - relevant employers tend to know the non RG unis that stand out for their sectors). Has your DCS school got all the university ranking software/websites? There are 2 or 3 out there. Very useful.

...On a side note, I recently got a letter telling me one of my postgraduate certs is now from a "RG" because the IoE (always too small to be RG, being a specialist school, but of course one of the best places for education and child psychology etc) got absorbed into Imperial College. Said certificate is well over 10 years old.
I bet some people will update their CVS with that but I trust an employer could read dates!

Squizita DS and I have analysed every uni ranking we could find. I think I qualify as an armchair expert. He only made three choices on his UCAS so he still could add more choices.

I've been there. I wanted a very specific course when I first applied ... only 3 reputable places did it! What to use the other spaces for!? Hours of angst and a dad who wanted law or accountancy as it's what the family would expect of a 4 A daughter, though he had no idea of the career routes I'd researched but that's another story...

Chemistry at A level is much more mathematical than at GCSE so would go well with the Maths aspect. But only studying one Science subject would drastically limit degree options. Have seen earlier up the thread that Physics is out. Does she like Biology? A combination of Maths, Biology, Chemistry and either Music or German would open lots of opportunities in Biomedical Sciences at degree level. Pure Maths (and Stats) is needed for these subjects if she doesn't like Mechanics.
Apologies that this takes the thread in a different direction, but this could be another possibility.

catslife "But only studying one Science subject would drastically limit degree options" Erm, not if you were considering (shock horror) a non STEM degree. What is it with mumsnet and STEM? (Disclaimer: I'm a happy scientist myself). Why do I keep seeing "ooo you must do FM", "ah but you should consider physics"... "biology"...

Here we have a young lady with a wonderful, diverse set of favourite subjects and what happens? Push, push, push... do more STEM subjects or you're DOOMED.

No you're not. German and Music sound wonderful in combination with Maths and Chemistry. All the time we see that this country needs linguists, for example. And Music is her favourite, so let her take it as far as she wants.