A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

[Littleham]

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

Sorry unclear ... 2nd rate tuition at the dodgy unis ... Bristol etc of course would be very good.

Cauchy I find b grade students often under pressure to do pure maths when applied/stats wpuld suit them better ... yes.

Applied maths and stats are not more suitable for B grade students - applied maths isn't "easier". Actually many students even in the top universities such as Cambridge find applied mathematics (mathematical physics) harder.

Many schools and sixth form colleges ask for at least an A at maths GCSE for a student to do maths at AS. Students who can't get an A in maths A level shouldn't be doing a degree which is primarily "academic" maths in my opinion. Degrees such as finance, accountancy etc would be much more suitable options.

Couchy ah that's interesting. I was basing that on what a couple of unis said (or rather their undergrad recruitment teams for widening involvement - obviously a bit of spin occurring there!).

Around 50 universities put in a maths submission to the research assessment last year (REF 2014). The top ~40 universities teach "academic" maths and are well respected. The bottom ten or so teach and research at a rather low level. What they teach is not "academic" pure or applied maths. I wouldn't advise a student to do maths at such places instead of looking at other subjects.

By contrast at least 80 universities are research active in a subject such as history (according to REF2014) and they all offer undergraduate history. It is much easier to differentiate history teaching and offer a range of courses suitable for students with different entering grade profiles.

Yes exactly cauchy - I have to explain to parents that the bottom end aren't worth it - better off doing finance at a stronger uni.
Some parents do it for the kudos too, not even for earning potential etc. That infuriates me: the child's career and/or interesr is paramount.

...and the outreach worker was borderline bottom end and I suspect got a bonus if kids applied ... didn't matter if they got in or not.

Thanks everyone. These responses are very helpful indeed. At least I will be able to relay all the potential pitfalls, even if she then chooses to ignore me! Luckily she still has one more opportunity to go over things with the school.

She probably does have the ability (although I know the step up to A Level is a big one). She gets 100% in all her current maths tests / mocks. Her main interest is obviously music. She is least keen on English & RS so at least we can rule out that area!

I think a lot of parents struggle to know what to advise at this stage & my two biggest fears are pushing her into an area she hates or leaving her stranded without the necessary subjects for something she later wants to pursue. I did float the idea of starting with five AS's and dropping one in the first term, but it probably won't fit with the timetable.

The Scottish system is very good for this sort of scenario as you do 5 subjects at higher and if you stay in Scotland for uni often get unconditionals based on them and can do more highers in 6th year or do advanced highers in 3 subjects for English unis or some Scottish ones.
Not much use for you though. I'd suggest doing applied/ further maths if she wants to do maths. I think she needs to start thinking about what sort of career she wants though not which subjects she likes.
My stepdaughter is doing performing music at a conservatoire and loves it but it's a lot of work for poor financial renumeration. Having said that my STEM based husband now wishes he'd become a professional musician even though the money is poor and jobs hard to get.
If she doesn't want to be a musician or study music then I'd drop music and just do it for fun. Many unis have orchestras she can join and she may be able to do extra music as part of her degree.

Also thanks to the person who worried about the whole Physics / Maths thingamyjig. Now that I think about it she is much more drawn to pure mathematics / algebra than mechanics. She is adamant she doesn't want to go into engineering (we do have three engineers in the family).

She has never done any careers aptitude tests so I'll look at that too. The only thing I do remember is that the school did a CAT test and she was unusually high on the shapes part of it (140).

So if anyone knows of a career that combines pure maths, spatial / shape awareness, music and German please do let me know.

Newcastle have a surveying and mapping BSc. No music although they do Erasmus stuff and have a language resource centre.
That's going down the spatial awareness route maybe a bit too much though if she isn't in to geography. They have several student orchestras. It does well on unistats. I quite fancy taking it now.

Edinburgh does mathematics and music and on unistats most of them seem to get jobs. They prefer further maths

I wondered whether the Maths experts could cast their eyes over this course - www.maths.leeds.ac.uk/undergraduate/degree-courses/bsc-mathematics-and-music.html It has the option of a sandwich year abroad.

It seems to combine her favourite bits of maths with her love of composition. Do you think she would need FM for a course like this? What do you think?

They want AAB with As in Maths and Music. I suspect they would drop that offer in Clearing. They are definitely not in a position to ask for FM.

I don't think the course is so much different from the other Maths with Music courses mentioned above? The maths parts are certainly very similar. At the same time with only GCSE maths she can't know what are her favourite bits of maths yet, since she's never met most of these topics at all.

All maths with music or languages courses make standard maths modules compulsory (calculus, differential equations, analysis) but tend to give freedom about other modules i.e. it is possible to mostly avoid statistics or applied if one doesn't like them much.

Music A level is not at all like a grade 8 which only assesses practical skills. Universities will expect grade 8 and A level. One isn't interchangeable with the other.

The Maths dept. has laid on Advanced Maths after school for a small group. She will be taking this at the same time as the GCSE. The Maths dept. is great and gives her extra work in classes.

Yes - I figured you would need Grade 8 and the A Level for Music at university.

Littleham. I hope you don't mind a bit of a derail.

squizita and cauchy. Your posts are really interesting and helpful as I have a DS who is applying to do maths at mid ranked Uni's. We have researched the courses, the unis and all the accompanying stats as much as we can but it's difficult to know what to do. He looked at the more vocational maths based degrees but wants to do straight maths. It's difficult for him to know what to do. He thinks he should keep his options open so is looking at unis offering a wider range of modules and offer the possibility of doing a year in industry and a masters but after that it's difficult to differentiate on the courses alone.

I've two other DC at uni studying stem courses at higher ranked unis - It seemed a lot easier for them to choose between different courses.

Sorry to be boring but I still think she should consider doing physics instead of chemistry, even if she thinks she does n't like it. Much more relevant to music and opens up more courses (discounting the engineering ones. Chemistry on its own would have to be taken purely for interest without it leading to a degree.
I know some students who were not enthused by GCSE physics but liked it enough at A level to contemplate doing it as a degree. They certainly were n't drawn to mechanics but more the particle and wave physics.

Just to say, don't necessarily dumb down Music A level (not sure why people think that ambling along to a couple of weekly lessons is equivalent). And her A level choices sound great to me, wonderfully diverse with hard (= well-regarded) subjects. It is not possible to cover every potential career aspiration with 4 subjects so don't try (suppose she suddenly wants to be a vet...). If all goes pear-shaped she can do another A level or two and apply to uni a year later (not that it might be your or her ideal whatever your circumstances, but just stressing doors aren't really locked shut by A level choices). If FM is deemed critical at this stage, some schools allow FM as a 5th so it might just be worth asking. Would be less hard on DD than studying something outside school.

StickyOutEars - if you post about which courses they are, people on here may well be able to give you feedback.

Just to chuck a further spanner in.

Has she looked at/considered German universities? A lot have degrees taught either wholly or partially in English

Maths would almost never be in English at undergraduate level at European universities and, as posted on other threads, the teaching style would be very different (large lectures, no small tutorials, no regular feedback on weekly assignments, no personal tutor). There are considerably more European students studying in the UK than the other way round for these reasons.

In UK courses such as Maths with German you do spend a year studying Maths at a German university. This is probably a better way to do it, because the student is a bit older and used to studying at university and living away from home when they do their year abroad. Moving abroad at 18 is very difficult.

Yes. I've seen other people make those points about European universities, so it is probably better to try to incorporate a year abroad instead. This is the one common factor with all my children despite completely different subject choices - they all seem to be keen on a year abroad.

DD3 did do some work experience at Rolls Royce (in the designing / building engines in year 10 and they wrote a reference saying she was suited to it. But no music! Perhaps she will decide later as Cleebourg indicates.

StickyOutEars - happy for you to ask questions. In fact they are quite relevant to my dd (if she doesn't take FM).

Again the discussion seems to be missing a vital element, which is what she might want to do after University. Both maths and music seem to be being mooted because they are subjects she likes at school. Now a joint degreee in maths and music is being suggested in part because the maths entry requirement will be lower, eg no FM.

Several careers, including accountancy, barrister etc do not require a specific degree subject and a joint degree could, say, give you a head start in teaching. However it will presumably close others. If maths is the avenue you want to pursue then not doing the FM at school means you presumably spend part of your time at University covering the ground, and coupled with the limitations of a joint degree, means that you wont cover as much ground as peers who have decided on maths from the start.

I dont know too much about maths careers, other than jobs in the City, though assume others go into computing and elsewhere. I understand that it is possible to go straight to an economics masters if you have done the right sort of courses (presumably statistics type things) and a summer school or two, or you find a point where maths converges with another discipline, eg stochastics. My assumption is that the higher level the maths you have done the more choices you have.

I assume the same may be true for music. If you want to use a music degree in some way, you want as good a degree as you can get from as well regarded institution as you can find, then work hard and network.

For both I assume that the calibre of other students matters. DS' maths courses go at a cracking pace because lecturers know that everyone has have an A* in maths and at least AS in Further. (One piece of anecdotal evidence culled from friends with DC also in their first year University taking quantitiative subjects, is that DC at top ranked institutions - Oxbridge/LSE/UCL/Imperial/Warwick/etc - are working very hard. This suits most who have the capacity to work hard and play hard, and who are into their subjects. Though obviously hard workers are not exclusive to those institutions, general expectations in some other well-regarded RG institutions don't seem to be as high.) Really if she has the capacity to do either maths or music well, she might be better to choose now and go for it.

I think there has been a generational shift. Higher education is a huge investment. Overseas students, to a much larger extent, will be seeing a degree as a means of opening future career doors, which is partly why they are concentrated in specific, often quantitiative, subjects (though plenty in design type courses as well). I wonder if at some point, as well as hearing that good students are not getting into good Universities because they have chosen the wrong A levels, we will hear that good students are not getting top jobs because they have chosen the wrong degrees. I am not advocating taking a degree you are not interested in, simply because it sounds "employable", that would be a recipe for disaster. However I do advocate considering carefully which doors you want your degree to open and then making sure they are as open as possible. (Eg with law, get the best degree you can from the best University you can go to, and think a little about what you might specialise in, eg chemistry might help with patents law, maths might help with insurance.)

Again the discussion seems to be missing a vital element, which is what she might want to do after University.

Yes - completely agree. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. So I guess that I am trying to understand how I can help her keep as many doors open as possible without doing anything completely stupid. I don't think she is unusual in not knowing what she wants to do later (well at least not in her immediate peer group).