A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

[Littleham]

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

The OPs dd doesn't know what type of degree she wants to do Cleebourg. It could be based on any of her A level choices.
Agree that most of the other posters have focused on Maths and the possible need for FM and have actually ignored the Chemistry, which I was trying to address. There is no edit facility on MNet, but Yes I did mean it would limit Science degree options (other than Maths).
It is really though up to the OP and he daughter to research the best combination that suits her abilities and interests and still keeps her options open as far as possible.

YY Cleebourg ... as mentioned in PP I work with employers (including BA and other large graduate employers, plus local law firms) and universities through my work with 6th formers.
They are really really honestly less obsessed with STEM than MN. Much less.
In fact they are sick of candidates with 2:2s or lower from universities that have poor STEM reputations (cause they couldn't get into better ones) applying to them and expecting to be lauded for taking STEM because that's what their private tutor in 6th form GOLDEN RULE: IF YOU NEED A TUTOR TO GET THE A LEVEL YOU SHOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT READING IT WITHOUT A BLOODY TUTOR AT UNIVERSITY told them to gauge cash out of mummy and daddy.

Honestly, they'd rather have the highest grade in a traditional academic or relevant vocational/specialised subject, from a good university.

And don't get me started on quasi STEM "lite" subjects marketed to exactly this mind set. They make it harder to give good IAG.

...and a lot of unemployed English and arts graduates haven't bloody well applied for graduate management type jobs ... They work in Starbucks because in a mirror image of the STEM issue, they thought they were the next Gareth Malone or whatever and had no back up plan. The sensible ones end up working in media/admin type careers, teaching, sales, etc ... people -skills.

I'm sorry catslife, that was graceless of me, you were contributing a fresh idea. I get sad when I see young people being pushed towards concentrating on STEM too soon with a consequent loss of diversity in their education and lives. And I do think it's encouraged by (alleged?) admin criteria that underrate what is learnt in humanities and arts subjects and instead demand every STEM A level under the sun, but that is a different topic. I'll stick for now to supporting diversity.

squzita cross-posted! Mind you I did take it out on catslife without due cause .

All useful opinions & this is really helping a lot. It is quite comforting to talk it over with other people.

Afraid the Biology is out. I did ask her about that & she said if she were to take a second science she would much prefer Physics, but would rather keep Music and German on....hence the dilemma. But it is a good dilemma I suppose. My other dc's lean one way or the other so it is easier.

I'm going to ask the Maths department if they have any ideas.

Graduates with MFL are like hen's teeth and highly employable in large cities/multinational companies.
Our attitude to languages in the UK is poor and does affect the economy.
Which is not good unless you can speak another language!

My eldest dd is doing two languages at university so it is very good to hear that opinion.

Littleham - the combination of subjects your DD is considering seem good to me (I'm involved in recruitment issues at national internal and professional level as part of my work). MFL skills are like hen's teeth and highly valued. And music as an A level and indeed as a degree subject is also very well respected. I agree with everything Cleebourg said about STEM too.

One word of caution about Music though - it is tough, being a superb performer is not a golden ticket to a great grade, there's a lot of hard work necessary too. If your DD is considering a music degree she should also consider doing Grade 8 theory, nobody ever demands it but it can help a lot (and result in reduced offers in some cases).

Thanks Gently - I know someone who teaches music theory so I'll put that on the 'to do' list. (In fact this lady moved here from the London area and used to play in the LPO).

I agree about the grade 8 theory. It'll help with the A level as well. A level music contains a lot of harmony work which is also covered in grade 8 theory.

Well folks, I just floated the idea of Grade 8 theory and she loves the idea. Practically leapt on the suggestion. I think we can safely say that Music A Level is here to stay.

Hi. Just seen this thread and just wanted to give you my experience of maths. Afraid I can't help with the other subjects. I took Maths at A Level but there was no option to study Further Maths. I then started a Maths and Stats degree at a redbrick university having obtained an A at A Level.

After 5 weeks I dropped out of the Maths part and transferred to a Stats degree. I had a serious shock to the system when I started going to maths lectures and realised the vast majority of other freshens had taken Further Maths, and the lecturers seemed to assume everyone had the same level of knowledge (or the ability to pick it up quickly). It all got abstract very quickly and I realised that I did not have the passion for pure maths that my fellow students did.

I still use Stats in my job now, and it was the right decision for me at the time. However I do wonder what path I would have taken if I had had the Further Maths background and hadn't given up the Maths.

I think Further Maths gives a very good indication of what direction degree-level Maths takes, and so could help your DD decide whether she wants to take it further.

Which university did you go to? (Hope you don't mind the question - don't feel obliged to answer). Just asking as it gives a guide regarding the FM issue.

It is also important to know when FairyPenguin went to university. Right now, 50% of maths entrants at most RG universities don't have FM so lecturers absolutely cannot and do not assume FM. (Of course this varies according to institutions - Oxbridge does assume FM as 99% of entrants have FM or foreign equivalents.)

Just checked music entry requirements for a couple of universities to confirm what I thought was the case. If you have grade 8 performance and theory then you may not need A level music as well. But performance level at exam and audition seems most important criteria. So could still use A level options for other subjects and pursue music based on ABRSM exams.

Cauchy- but if the degree wether it be physics or maths etc that only those who did FM were the majority ones who could grasp the level of maths involved compared to non FM students And come out with higher class degree then those who didnt who got lower class not doing FM surely it's better to come prepared for it. Maybe some kind of statistic that correlate FM with degree class outcome Vs students that didn't do it. I don't think it's always the case or presumption that most MNetters are stem obsessed got take all stem it or its doom, but rather we want our kids to go to uni well equipped with skills/ability needed to get a good class degree.

...employers also like ability to use punctuation.

Sorry squizita yeah your right

And come out with higher class degree then those who didnt who got lower class not doing FM surely it's better to come prepared for it.

There is no evidence correlating FM with degree class outcome. The first year of maths is harder for those without FM but already in the first year 70-80% of the material (at least) is new to those without FM.

Of course, if you are sure you want to do maths, physics and engineering then it's far better to have maths and FM. But Littleham's daughter isn't sure what she wants to do. There are only a small number of universities where she really, really needs FM to do maths i.e. she would be in the minority not having FM. She would be absolutely fine, just have a slightly harder first year, at many other very good universities.

BTW nobody has mentioned it yet but of course only doing one MFL also excludes her (in practice) from MFL degrees at the very top places. Oxbridge would be looking for 2 MFL A levels for an MFL degree.

My eldest dd only had one MFL at A Level and got all five offers. I don't get the impression dd3 wants to go to Oxford /Cambridge.

...those MFL offers were Bristol, Durham, London, Warwick and Exeter.

I went to Reading in the late 90s. I was definitely in the minority in not having studied FM, and I can honestly say I did not have the natural aptitude to pick up the knowledge as quickly as was required. I also admit that I was used to being near the top of the class at school and picking things up easily. I did not like being at the bottom of my peers at uni, purely because I didn't have FM and struggled to pick it up reading textbooks rather than actually being taught it at a speed I could follow.

Reading is nowadays one of the lower entry level courses: ABB at A level, to include A at maths. I don't have the data to hand but I would be surprised if more than 20% of their entrants had FM A level. Even for courses which ask for A*AA/AAA the number having FM averages around 50%.

There has been a huge expansion in the number of maths undergraduates since the 90s. Departments which were taking 100 students even ten years ago are now taking 150. The growth has been partly at the top end, fuelled by strong career prospects for maths, but mostly at the lower end. Students who studied maths at university in the 90s would pretty much all be A*AA+ candidates these days, going to the top 20 or so universities. The lower ranked universities are filling their places with students who wouldn't have been doing maths twenty years ago.

Littleham, I agree that very few courses can insist on 2 MFL these days as there is such a shortage of MFL applicants. But Oxbridge (with an applicant: offer rate of around 1:3) can afford to be picky. I know of people who did maths, further maths, science and MFL, thinking they were going to study maths at university only to change their minds and apply for MFL instead. They would have been strong Oxbridge candidates for MFL if they had had 2 MFL instead of one.

See what you mean about Oxbridge. I'll let her know that she would be ruling it out.

From what I have gathered in this thread she will have to choose between keeping her options open with her wide choice of subjects or narrowing it right now with the possible catastrophic effect of jumping the wrong way (& regretting it later).

The German and Music options can be kept without too many problems (as long as she is happy not to apply to Oxbridge) but Maths is trickier. It sounds like she may still get offers for Maths at some universities but might struggle with the work.

Or we could move to Scotland.....