A Level Choices for degrees - any advice welcome

[Littleham]

My year 11 dd is choosing her A Levels. Her favourite subjects are Maths, Music, German and Chemistry. She doesn't know what she wants to take at degree level or where she wants to go (she did ask about combining Maths and Music). At the moment she might not be able to take Further Maths (her Maths teacher says she has the ability) due to a timetable clash & if she did she would have to drop one of the other favourite subjects.

Have had a quick look at the joint honours courses for the subjects she may end up doing & it looks possible (eg Edinburgh AAA, no need for FM)-
possible combinations of Maths / Music
or Music / German
or Maths
or anything else that enters her head!

I suppose the first thing that comes to mind is how essential is music at A-level? If she has instrumental grade 8 (or whatever is highest) is the A-level actually required?

Could she do Maths, FM, German, Chemistry and keep music at grade level, or take music A-level as an independent candidate in addition to the other 4 taken at school?

For flexibility at university, have a good look at courses at Edinburgh/St. Andrews etc. It wouldn't be at all unusual to have a mix of science, maths and languages at SQA Higher (or advanced higher), so Universities in Scotland wouldn't find that subject mix particularly atypical.

Thanks. I think the timetable clash may be with FM and German. She is grade 8 on one instrument, but absolutely loves music as a subject so might not want to give it up.

Is it possible to take FM outside school? Just an idea.

Theoretically you can take any school exam as an independent candidate. You register and pay and find an exam centre to sit it at. (Which might be the same school).

I think tbh it would be unusual to take FM that way, but it might be worth asking if she can self study for it (or German) and be registered for both through the school; 5A levels isn't unheard of after all. Not all schools are willing to make exceptions though, so she may just have to make a hard decision. Is it worth looking at FE colleges to see if she could take something as a night class? I'd expect it would be easier to pick up a language as an extra than FM.

I can see why she'd find the choice hard, but it is a fundamentally good dilemma to be so talented.

If she wants to do maths at Uni then she should be seriously considering further maths. The usual reason that unis don't include it in their offers for maths is because not all schools offer it and it would restrict their pool of candidates, not because it's not needed.

Studying further maths independently would not be advisable, it's pretty hard. She'd be better keeping her music up outside of school than trying to do the further maths.

Presumably the Scottish Universities can offer more flexibility because they are four year courses, so there is an extra year.

Is this the Little Littleham who reached the Grey Kangaroo? If so she should certainly be good for double maths?

Questions:

1. Is there only one sixth form option. Could her choices be accomodated at a different school.

1. Is she very likely to take a maths based subject at University, eg chemistry or even the quantitative end of a social science (economics, psychology) if she does not study maths?

If so I think the advise DS received holds good. That is to do as much maths as you can at school as it is easier to learn in a school setting than at University. Maths courses seem to go at a cracking pace. DS claims they covered a good chunk of one FM A2 paper in a single lecture. He's finding it hard enough with the A2. Those without will find it harder still.

She should look at requirements for maths and chemistry at a good sample of likely Universities. Where it says something on the lines of FM is expected unless your school does not offer it, they mean it.

I also think that taking FM helps guarantee a good grade in Maths. I don't know if it will change but currently you can do a certain amount of allocating papers to each exam. Also C1 and C2 (or S1 or M1) become easier if you are practicing C3 & C4 etc.

Couple of NMS opinions:

1. Going to University is expensive. Your DD will be paying. She should weigh up whether a Music A level is worth the risk of restricting her choice of University or causing her to have to take a four year course.

1. She should be quite careful about maths as a subject, unless she really enjoys it. It can be quite lonely, as the pattern seems to be that lots of concepts are thrown at you in a lecture and then you go away to figure them out. Slightly different from other subjects where you understand the material during the lecture but then need to learn it. I'm not sure if I am explaining well. My understanding, and based on a few recent anecdotes (no, not data, so happy to be corrected) is that even at places like Cambridge and Warwick, a number of mathematicians will drop out, or more likely transfer to other degrees, within the first term or two. I assume that as well as a jump from GCSE to A level there is a jump from A level to University. Some people simply decide they dont want to be doing maths all the time, and indeed quite a high proportion of other quantitative degrees can end up being maths. The fact that your daughter is unsure whether she wants to do two maths A levels out of 4, is a bit of a warning.

Thanks Woodhead & noblegiraffe. Part of the problem is not knowing which subject she wants to study in the future. I'll let her know about the FM and that it isn't easy to study outside school.

My main concern at this stage is explaining to her how some doors may shut due to choices now. So far the consensus seems to be that she needs FM for a maths degree.

Probably a bit of a random suggestion but has she looked at Surrey for BMus Sound recording? She'd need to swap Chem for Physics but it needs top grades Maths and Music too and offers a chance of a year abroad which could keep her German going. Might combine all her interests?

No Mr Grey kangaroo is no.4 and will be so much easier as he is firmly in the maths / science camp. I would say she is good but not as addicted to maths as ds.

Music would be the subject she would find hard to give up! Does anyone else struggle with what to advise their dc's?

Not sure that I have managed to convey the information to 'Miss Stubborn'. Her ds didn't help by piping up that people in her class have offers for Maths without FM.

However the school have been great and will talk through the options with her again to check that she knows what she is doing. Timetabling is not yet set in stone.

I've heard that music A'level is very unpredictable in terms of results. You can be an amazing performer and accepted to conservatoire and still do badly in the practical element. If she will need high grades for future study, may be worth looking into this.

I thought Needmoresleep made a really good point on finances re 4yr courses.

So if she doesn't take FM now and does want to read maths, she will exclude the top few English universities from her choice set, and would face a much tougher first year on a 3yr course (even though she might well get an offer). If she looks at Edinburgh/St.Andrews (4yr courses), she would probably be fine academically without FM (1st yr entry), but would have to PAY an extra years worth of fees and maintenance.

As long as she understands the implications of her choices, then that is the main thing. If she thinks she wants to read Music/German, then she'd probably be better off without the FM, but this might have a very real financial cost later if she changes her mind.

Maths with Music and Maths with German is possible at a number of English universities, without having FM, e.g.

www.southampton.ac.uk/maths/undergraduate/courses.page?

Not having FM excludes only the very top English universities for maths.

That course looks really good Cauchy. Might be a good solution. I'll show it to her. It has an AAA requirement (gulp) or AAB if you take either FM or STEP. I'm guessing you would need to have studied FM in order to understand STEP?

But at least there are options out there.

Littleham, there are lots of threads about STEP. You can do it without FM, as it is a different sort of test. However there will be a certain amount of practice required and you dont get the results till August.

STEP 1 and 2 are supposed to be accessible without FM.
STEP 3 you would normally need to have studied FM (or equivalent)

Cauchy's Southampton course asks for STEP 2. I'll start investigating STEP just in case she goes down that particular avenue.

Grief, I'm going to be grey before my lot finish! I wouldn't be worrying quite so far ahead if it wasn't for all the warnings I keep reading about teenagers inadvertently closing off options by poor A Level choices.

I don't think any universities insist on Further Maths (which would only really be relevent to Maths, Physics and Engineering degrees) because not all state schools offer it.

The will offer catch up courses for those students who haven't done it, if it's needed.

You won't find many top 20 maths courses which aren't asking for at least AAA. Straight maths at Southampton requires A*AA without further maths, so there is a "discount" given already for maths with german or music.

I suspect very few people would take up the AAB with STEP offer rather than AAA but as I said on other threads students who want to study maths are encouraged to do FM and STEP as better preparation for university maths.

BTW outside the very top places most would take grades which are equivalent in points i.e. A*AB would be accepted for AAA provided the B was in the third subject.

I don't think any universities insist on Further Maths (which would only really be relevent to Maths, Physics and Engineering degrees) because not all state schools offer it.

No, this isn't really true. While it is possible to be offered a place for maths at a top university (Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, Warwick, Bath) without FM, it is very rare that this happens at Oxbridge. Physics is almost a prerequisite at Cambridge as well - very few students are accepted to Cambridge maths without it. UCL, Warwick and Bath do make more offers to students without FM but the offers made very high if there is no FM. UCL requires AAA plus STEP, for example.

My own opinion is that it is not acceptable that schools don't offer FM (as least at AS) because it does exclude students from top degrees, and even if the students are accepted they are at a disadvantage.

However, this will all change if the new maths A level goes ahead. It will contain a lot of the FM content which is crucial for maths/physics/engineering, i.e. it will be harder and the curriculum will return to what it was 20 years ago.

Will the new harder Maths A Level be in time for next September?

No, if it is introduced, it won't be taught until September 2017, i.e. 2 years time, so that students will have done the new harder maths GCSE.

The changes to maths A level (and the GCSE) are controversial. Many academics are worried that the number of students taking maths A level will drop sharply. I would not be surprised if a Labour government put a stop to some of these changes.

That will be just in time for my youngest. I hope the offers will be lowered a bit!

Many academics are worried that the number of students taking maths A level will drop sharply

Which is exactly what happened the last time maths A-level was made harder. These changes are idiotic. The main reason a lot of schools don't offer further maths is because there aren't many teachers around who can actually teach it, so making the A-level harder is going to be a double whammy of both students and teachers unable to cope.

Universities want maths A-level to be harder because they complain that the current A-level isn't sufficient preparation for a degree (hence why the OP's DD should be doing further maths), but then they don't insist on further maths in their offers, which means that schools can get away with not offering it and kids don't think it's necessary.

Fugacity, I don't know where your information comes from.

Cambridge, Warwick, UCL and LSE are all looking for students to offer at least AS FM for an economics degree. As I suggested up thread they may not insiste on A2 FM but will have wording that says that A2 FM is desirable/expected if your school offers it. The point is with a subject like maths surely, that you are doing a degree which requires a lot of maths, be it pure maths or something applied, it is best to have done as much as you can at school. I understand that several Universities also hope that chemistry students will have quite a lot of maths.

Maths at University appears, at least in DS' experience, to set off at a cracking pace. And he is reading economics. He is very pleased he did the FM, as life would have been even tougher if he had not. Remedical classes are one thing but not much fun if they are on top of an already heavy workload.

Littleham there is likely to be more school support for FM than STEP. I know DS, who did well in his FM, was not prepared to consider Cambridge colleges that required STEP for Economics applicants. He thought it was too hard.

Littleham out of interest what does she like most about music, ditto German? If she likes the academic side of music (composition, essays etc) enough and is considering a music degree (rather than performance at a conservatoire) then music A level would be hard to do without.
What about German? Does she like literature or mainly speaking? If the latter she could do it outside school.