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Guest post: "Muslim women are diverse, funny and opinionated – not #TraditionallySubmissive"

214 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 27/01/2016 17:00

As a mother of two girls, I'm constantly anxious that they don't suffer from the gender penalty as they grow up. This is the penalty that props up the glass ceiling, that restricts their access to the corridors of power, that makes their pay packet lighter, or that reduces them to their body and looks, and continues to disproportionately burden them with childcare and household chores.

But as a Muslim mother I also worry that my daughters live in a society that does not see them for the people they are or give them the space to flourish as individuals. Instead, they are on a perilous slope towards being seen as part of a homogenous group of oppressed, dehumanised creatures. Front page headlines today proclaimed that "Muslims are not like us". It's yet another example of the constant hostility faced by Muslims – especially Muslim women – in the UK.

My heart sank last week when I woke up to the news that the Prime Minister had said Muslim women must do more to integrate. I mean, I love queueing, I can talk at length about traffic and weather, and I'm on Mumsnet. What more does he want?

His aim is to get more Muslim women to speak English and he announced a £20 million fund for English lessons. I've always been an advocate of how important it is to speak the main language of social engagement, and I've been involved in running workshops encouraging women to better express their voices and opinions. So I'm all for English lessons for those struggling with the language. But this was the same Prime Minister who cut £45 million funding for English lessons this summer.

His clumsy and lazy characterisation of the 'Muslim women problem' stitched together ideas of Muslim women as segregated from society and responsible for extremism, and led to the all-too-familiar headlines casting Muslim women as isolated, illiterate and oppressed. However, he admitted that there was no causal connection between not speaking English and extremism. But the damage is done. The misleading portrayal of Muslim women undoubtedly exacerbates an increasingly hostile environment; attacks against Muslims are up 275% since the Paris attacks and Muslim women make up 60% of the victims.

If I wasn't already angered enough at this, I nearly spat out my morning coffee when I read reports that the Prime Minister had privately suggested that a major reason young men are vulnerable to radicalisation is the "traditional submissiveness" of Muslim women.

I responded in the most British way possible – with sarcasm. After all, we are always being told to adopt British values.

"Actually, my husband runs my Twitter feed because I can't speak English #TraditionallySubmissive" I mocked on Twitter, adding "I bought a sports car and published a book (in English and eight other languages). I must be doing this wrong."

I wasn't the only one to feel incensed. Other Muslim women took up the hashtag. Dr Sukaina Hirji, a GP based in London, posted on her Facebook page "I and many others have been extremely hurt by David Cameron's article in The Times earlier this week, specifically (and incorrectly) targeting Muslim women's apparent inability to speak the English language and loosely linking this to radicalisation (multifactorial causes) and Female Genital Mutilation (cultural practice)."

She made a public call to Muslim women to "show solidarity and speak out against this discrimination" by tweeting and posting selfies during a coordinated period to create a Twitter storm with the hashtag #TraditionallySubmissive.

On Sunday evening, the hashtag was quickly trending in the UK and continued to trend until Monday morning, with over thirty thousand tweets sent so far. These ranged from pictures of Muslim women graduating, hiking, fundraising, skiing and boxing, to others holding placards listing their achievements - including speaking multiple languages.

Coverage of the Twitter storm has been global – and this is important, because women's voices must be taken seriously, and Muslim women are part of the 50% of our population that is consistently under-represented and under-served. Muslim women are vibrant, diverse, funny and yes, opinionated. And that's a good thing. We want to make things better for ourselves and for those around us. And we hope you will support us in challenging the idea that we are submissive, pathetic little flowers.

OP posts:
Technoremix · 29/01/2016 18:57

Three is women swimming sessions, yes. But if you are serious about swimming and want to train and go to competitions yo are going to have to swim with boys/men. Same with gymnastics. And actually most sports if you are serious about them are very hard to do whist wearing a headscarf. It is even hard/uncomfortable to leave the house in summer if you have to wear a headscarf, depending on where you live.

And it is sad. Muslim women's wife are being curtailed by dress codes that are not required and are not imposed on men.

Technoremix · 29/01/2016 18:59

*womens's lives, not wifes!

kesstrel · 29/01/2016 18:59

It depends on interpretation.

Unfortunately, some religious people are unable to accept that any interpretation other than their own is possible. Hmm

originalmavis · 29/01/2016 19:02

I was pissed to read that a member of the Iranian woman's national football squad had to miss an iternational match because her husband wouldn't let her renew her passport. It would have meant she missed her sons first day at school and he didn't want her to. She wasn't given a choice.

On one hand it's great that she could become an world class sports person, but on the other, still just a mans possession. Ah religion. Suits those who write/control interpret it

knackeredknees · 29/01/2016 19:05

Why have separate women's swimming at all? If mixed swimming is good enough for the host nation, it's good enough for Muslims IMO

originalmavis · 29/01/2016 19:24

I'd prefer separate swimming as I am not comfortable in my cozzie. Actually I'd prefer the pool to myself. It really is very obsessed with sexual attraction isn't it?

januarybrown1998 · 29/01/2016 19:37

I'm not scared when I see veiled women.

At five years old? I'm just really really sad.

My Muslim girlfriends do not, with one exception who lives in the ME, wear the veil.

They are mainly career women, educated abroad and only a handful of them married.

They tell me that the veil, in their opinion, has become a political statement rather than a religious one and that they know of families where the grandmothers are astonished that their daughters in their twenties are choosing to cover.

The most vocal are two Lebanese sisters who live in Paris. They are stunned at the number of covered women in London 'every year it's more.'

Likereally · 29/01/2016 19:59

The host nation? Seriously? What if you were born here?

If you are that keen on gender mingling then why are there separate toilets? Separate changing areas? Why do you wear clothes? Maybe you should walk around naked?

Where do you then draw the line? And what if YOUR line is different to someone else's?

Likereally · 29/01/2016 20:03

Noeuf I appreciate where you are coming from and I agree - it's a part of life that no one will think the same, but I do feel that I need to express my own viewpoint as there are so many hostile voices in this thread.

You will find the gender inequality just as strong in the UK as much as any other place, veiled under freedom. Unequal pay, objectification of women, narcisstic men and subjugated women (who speak English) - it's everywhere.

SouthWestmom · 29/01/2016 20:26

Hi like, sorry I wasn't expecting you not to post, or suggesting you shouldn't. I just felt that it was possible that I could be interpreted as being rude on a personal level, and that is not my intention. It's a debate where I feel there are only so many times I can say the same thing in different ways.

originalmavis · 29/01/2016 20:41

'Host nation' I assume meant 'home culture'. Yes you can be born and bread here but if you are/choose to follow a religion which includes food/clothing/lifestyle/attitudes/prejuduces that are closer to Saudi than the UK, then yes it is seen as 'other'.

And no, the fact that Christianity emerged from the ME is not list on me.

When I was visiting (ME born, bred and emigrated) family in the US we bumped into a woman fully clothed in black (hands included) in over 40 degree heat. My relatives were gobsmacked to see that in a tiny wee town at the back of beyond. They rarely even see that when they go home.

IPityThePontipines · 29/01/2016 20:44

I feel sad that the debate as moved on from what the OP has to say, to her clothes.

I also wish people would stop the "My friends in.." argument. I don't care. The hijab is not coming off my head.

Guest post: "Muslim women are diverse, funny and opinionated – not #TraditionallySubmissive"
DG2016 · 29/01/2016 20:45

This is wrong

"You will find the gender inequality just as strong in the UK as much as any other place, veiled under freedom"

Muslim nations have much less gender equality than the West. The sooner women realise covering is sexist and does women no good the better.

Likereally · 29/01/2016 20:46

I understand, I'm not offended by what you have said.

But I think there needs to be a differentiation made between cultural issues and religious issues.

Many Muslim women do follow the traditional family set up (just as many don't). Whatever works for the couple, nothing to do with religion sometimes it is a cultural thing.

Other things like women not driving were brought into place as they believed it would protect women. I disagree with this too, but again it's a cultural issue not a religious issue.

The whole concept of women being hidden - again it is a cultural one.

Many women who are seen that way may simply be the traditional home maker types, cooking, cleaning - looking after the kids while their husbands work. They may become lazy getting out and about because there is a strong family supportive network - these same kids who support those mothers will be caring for them into their old age, it's more complex. Again there will be those women who want to work and that's what suits them.

This whole women walking behind men, again cultural - perhaps it stems from men being protective of their wives - again, cultural! I walk alongside my husband, whatever you want to do!

Likereally · 29/01/2016 20:47

That was for noef..

ArgyMargy · 29/01/2016 20:51

I'm not sure about challenging a stereotype by using sweeping generalisations has any value. Saying that Muslim women are funny and opinionated is ridiculous - presumably some of them are and some of them aren't. The point should be that, like non-Muslim women, they come in all shapes, sizes and personalities. Some will be submissive, some will be assertive. Some will be liberal, some conservative. Islam is a fairly broad church; like Christianity and Judaism there are different interpretations and believers choose their own path. Stop with the hating, please.

Technoremix · 29/01/2016 20:54

Like- you are right, there most definitely is gender inequality in the UK and a lot of women are trying to fight against it. However the gender inequality here is nothing like it is in traditionally Muslim countries. And Muslim women "choosing"to cover for misguided political reasons here does nothing to further the rights of women here or abroad. Actually it diminishes them. And it is insulting to the Muslim women not in this country who are forced to cover up and would love the protection the law here offers you. I do belive some women "think" it is their choice to cover but if you look back at your upbringing I don't think anyone actually choose to wear hijab. It is indoctrinated into you at a young age/ and/or people are converted by radicals as teens as they are lacking direction/poor etc. And some educated adult Muslim women cover due to family pressure (my college, a 39yo Consultant Dr does this when she visits family and really resents it). So there is a miriad of reasons but you can be a fathful follower of Islam without wearing a head covering ( just like men!).

No one chooses to alienate themself by wearing hot uncomfortable clothing that restricts their life, not without considerable indoctaration or other

Likereally · 29/01/2016 20:54

DG2016, there may certainly be differences but you cannot say it does not exist here, or that women here are not constantly fighting for the right to be treated fairly - whether it be breastfeeding, maternity leave, progression in the workplace .. These are just a few things.

januarybrown1998 · 29/01/2016 20:56

Argy good point.

I, however, do care what people say. Whether I agree with their words or not. Whoever's friends they may be.

Because too many women literally have no voices.

And wasn't that the initial starting point of this debate?

RegalWalz01 · 29/01/2016 21:01

Anyone meets me would know the last thing I am is submissive and most don't see my scarf once they get to know me and the funny thing is, I don't really know this submissive Muslim woman as yet, or uneducated, even though some do choose to stay home to bring up kids. Personally I have had 9 children, all been to University, apart from my last son, 18 and at college at the moment. I've been self employed and work most of my live, have a high education and have friends from just everywhere. Scarf isn't an issue unless people make it. The government has done no favours and incited violence against Muslim women, he needs to put his brain where his mouth is.....

Likereally · 29/01/2016 21:03

Techno, I was certainly not indoctrinated to wear hijab - I wore it by myself when I went to college (in spite of my mothers concerns) I received a basic Islamic education (similar to that of Sunday schools I guess).

What you call indoctrination could be applied to any way a parent brings up their child.

People who cover do out of following the faith - certainly as an adult no one should be forced to do anything - she should be able to communicate that to her family.

Likereally · 29/01/2016 21:06

Many young women may have started veiling or covering simply because they are at that stage of their lives where they are looking for an identity, happens in the teenage years.

Technoremix · 29/01/2016 21:22

Like- of course all religions indoctrinate their children- that's what all religions have in common!

So you chose to wear hijab only when you went to college? Who did you meet there? Did you want to fit in? Did you want to reject "western culture?

Life isn't a vacuum. Nobody wakes up one day and thinks I'll cover my face and neck in the presence of male people for the rest of my life and just suck it up that I can't do all their activities my male counterparts do.

Nobody does that without some kind of indoctrination.

Likereally · 29/01/2016 21:28

Do you seriously think people are not capable of making their own decisions? And just because you disagree with those decisions, and think they wrong, they must be indoctrinated?

So you want me to follow what you feel is right, because I must be wrong, isn't that a bit controlling?

Likereally · 29/01/2016 21:30

So you actually want to indoctrinate me with YOUR ideas and values - you don't need religion to want to indoctrinate people, you just need to be arrogant and think your right Wink

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