Guest post: "Muslim women are diverse, funny and opinionated – not #TraditionallySubmissive"

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As a mother of two girls, I'm constantly anxious that they don't suffer from the gender penalty as they grow up. This is the penalty that props up the glass ceiling, that restricts their access to the corridors of power, that makes their pay packet lighter, or that reduces them to their body and looks, and continues to disproportionately burden them with childcare and household chores.

But as a Muslim mother I also worry that my daughters live in a society that does not see them for the people they are or give them the space to flourish as individuals. Instead, they are on a perilous slope towards being seen as part of a homogenous group of oppressed, dehumanised creatures. Front page headlines today proclaimed that "Muslims are not like us". It's yet another example of the constant hostility faced by Muslims – especially Muslim women – in the UK.

My heart sank last week when I woke up to the news that the Prime Minister had said Muslim women must do more to integrate. I mean, I love queueing, I can talk at length about traffic and weather, and I'm on Mumsnet. What more does he want?

His aim is to get more Muslim women to speak English and he announced a £20 million fund for English lessons. I've always been an advocate of how important it is to speak the main language of social engagement, and I've been involved in running workshops encouraging women to better express their voices and opinions. So I'm all for English lessons for those struggling with the language. But this was the same Prime Minister who cut £45 million funding for English lessons this summer.

His clumsy and lazy characterisation of the 'Muslim women problem' stitched together ideas of Muslim women as segregated from society and responsible for extremism, and led to the all-too-familiar headlines casting Muslim women as isolated, illiterate and oppressed. However, he admitted that there was no causal connection between not speaking English and extremism. But the damage is done. The misleading portrayal of Muslim women undoubtedly exacerbates an increasingly hostile environment; attacks against Muslims are up 275% since the Paris attacks and Muslim women make up 60% of the victims.

If I wasn't already angered enough at this, I nearly spat out my morning coffee when I read reports that the Prime Minister had privately suggested that a major reason young men are vulnerable to radicalisation is the "traditional submissiveness" of Muslim women.

I responded in the most British way possible – with sarcasm. After all, we are always being told to adopt British values.

"Actually, my husband runs my Twitter feed because I can't speak English #TraditionallySubmissive" I mocked on Twitter, adding "I bought a sports car and published a book (in English and eight other languages). I must be doing this wrong."

I wasn't the only one to feel incensed. Other Muslim women took up the hashtag. Dr Sukaina Hirji, a GP based in London, posted on her Facebook page "I and many others have been extremely hurt by David Cameron's article in The Times earlier this week, specifically (and incorrectly) targeting Muslim women's apparent inability to speak the English language and loosely linking this to radicalisation (multifactorial causes) and Female Genital Mutilation (cultural practice)."

She made a public call to Muslim women to "show solidarity and speak out against this discrimination" by tweeting and posting selfies during a coordinated period to create a Twitter storm with the hashtag #TraditionallySubmissive.

On Sunday evening, the hashtag was quickly trending in the UK and continued to trend until Monday morning, with over thirty thousand tweets sent so far. These ranged from pictures of Muslim women graduating, hiking, fundraising, skiing and boxing, to others holding placards listing their achievements - including speaking multiple languages.

Coverage of the Twitter storm has been global – and this is important, because women's voices must be taken seriously, and Muslim women are part of the 50% of our population that is consistently under-represented and under-served. Muslim women are vibrant, diverse, funny and yes, opinionated. And that's a good thing. We want to make things better for ourselves and for those around us. And we hope you will support us in challenging the idea that we are submissive, pathetic little flowers.

From the responses here it appears that DC isn't the only one suffering from Outgroup Homogeneity Effect, if not outright Islamophobia.

Well I don't like Slimy Dave but I do think that offering English lessons to migrants as a way of integrating is a faultless idea.

I used to work for a migrant centre and quite a few husbands brought their wives in asking for groups / classes that their wives could participate in to feel less isolated.

I don't think Slimy Dave is talking about those like the OP who have clearly integrated.

I'm not sure what's not to like. If someone gave me free language lessons I'd be happy as Larry and it's not insulting to say that newcomers to this country might not have as good a grasp as natives.

IMO, the minute you use statistics that are derived from tell mama as an emotive angle you lose the narrative...

he did the right thing. I wouldn't dream of migrating to another country and then not even bother to learn the language.

I used to volunteer in a refuge where plenty of Muslim women who'd been here for 20 plus years had no English and relied on their kids to talk for them.

As an aside they always ended up giving up their protection and going back to the husbands who beat them up because they were more terrified of their so called communities than their abusive husbands/brothers/fathers.

Maybe if they spoke English and lived outside the Muslim community they would have jphad the confidence to break free

Good point about the NHS translators Ottilia
When I went for my 12 week pregnancy scan and checkup, I was asked if I had been subject to any domestic violence. DH was at work but the midwife explained that even when people come with partners, they get every single woman regardless of history or circumstances alone in the consult room at some point and ask them the same question, and that I may well be asked again at future checkups during pregnancy and after delivery. This may be the only time the door is open to freedom and safety for some women. Language is important, it's a shame funding has been cut.

The OP is clearly intellegent, articulate and can write very good English. Oh that evey woman in this country were able to do the same. Sadly there is still a lot of mysogeny in this country in the indigenous population.

Even more sad, it is my peception that mysogeny is even more entrenched in the recently arrives muslim population. Of course, that may be wrong but when I see a woman walking behind her husband, or wearing a full face mask (which would seem to make breathing more difficult) it does not help me to consider Islam as a liberating progressive force that emancipates women.

Why are they all wearing headscarves? Isn't that in itself a mark of submission? Why dont Muslim men have to cover their hair? I have read a lot of justifications about how the women say it is their choice but it doesn't ring true. These women have been indoctrinated from a young age ( or converted when older) to believe that it is their free choice but I don't think it is, not really. A loose headscarf as a mark of respect when entering a religious building I can understand ( a la Carrie in Homeland) but that tight scarf that covers every bit of hair and neck and leaves just the face eposed? No. Nobody chooses that. Think how hot and uncomfortable that is on a hot day? To never feel the wind in your hair; to never go out with a hairstyle that people can see. It "others" women who "choose" to wear it and it is not necessary in Islam. The wearing of headscarves puts down women, ALL women, not just Muslim ones.

I suspect the original OP didn't expect quite the reaction she got on this thread!

It's utterly naive to think that just because she's been one of the lucky ones, there aren't tens of thousands of muslim women in the UK who are still treated by their so called communities as though they're still living in the medieval craphole their parents came from.

There can be no integration with the host community while they live in pockets of London, Birmingham, Bradford etc all close together. The only 2 muslim women I know socially are both 2nd generation and married white Scottish men. They're totally British, no hijabs, they drink, work in professional jobs etc and rarely go to mosque. They just don't eat pork. I just would never get to meet any muslim women who still live in their little tight knit communities of cousins, aunties uncles etc all living next door to each other.

I agree techno. I grew up in a muslim country, where not every woman weirs a head scarf, but on the whole the justification is a follows: men will look at women in a sexual way (they can't help it). This is not good, so the solution is for women to cover their hair, or their whole face. Not to challenge men's attitude towards women. The whole premise shows the imbalance of power between men and women. That's before you add in walking 4 paces behind, men being able to marry up to four women (that applies in most muslin countries), and coranic statements on women such as a man's witness is worth that of 4 women, women inherit less than male siblings, etc. OP, I suspect that is where a lot of indigenous british ideas about gender relations in Islam come from. Not purely from ignorance.

I suspect the original OP didn't expect quite the reaction she got on this thread!

What, that just the mere mention of Muslim women, by a Muslim woman would bring several tedious bigots running here to post their ill-informed views?

No, she probably thought better of the readers Mumsnet then that, but every day's a school day.

Techo "a la Carrie in Homeland" if that's where you're getting your information on the Islamic world, it's not surprising you feel able to make such an ignorant statement. Yes, women choose to wear hijab. No, it's not uncomfortable.

Just another - how is mentioning statistics of Islamophobic abuse faced by Muslim women "an emotive angle that loses the narrative"? Do you say the same when DV statistics are mentioned? Or is it that you think Muslim women are lying about receiving Islamophobic abuse?

Yes, women choose to wear hijab. No, it's not uncomfortable

I've worn one, because if I didn't I would have been beaten by the religious police.

And I've seen little girls beaten, on their skull with stout sticks, for showing their hair.

There's been a lot of outcry about the use of the word 'dehumanising' recently.

That is how I felt. Dehumanised, worthless and second class.

Please do not dismiss how I felt because the UK allows women to both wear the hijab and post cute photos of themselves. I thank god every single day that I will never have to cover myself again.

It's not uncomfortable? Really?

I respect Muslim women's right to wear the hijab, niquab or other religious garments. But it is by its nature a submissive act, it is a not a feminist choice.

That's fine, I'm sure I've made plenty of choices which are not feminist, despite considering myself a feminist. As has everyone here I imagine. But there's no point trying to dress it up as anything more than what it is, an act of submission for the benefit of a patriarchal religion.

Pontipine call me a tedious bigot if you like, but my opinions are based on my experience of 9 years living in a Muslim country. I have not mentioned the half of what I saw and suffered as a female in that country, which puts anything i went through in non mulsim countries as a female, in the shade.

Alis - I'm not trying to justify it, because I have no interest in the opinion of people on the internet about my clothing choices.

January - So you lived in Saudi Arabia then. I'm not sure why all the mystery and refusing to name the country. Yes, Saudi has an hideously repressive regime, which commits many crimes against it's people, but in terms of population, it accounts for a tiny proportion of the Muslim world

This guest post was started by a British Muslim women about British Muslim women in the UK, it's about our lives, why shouldn't we get to discuss that?

I totally agree re the comments on the headscarves and other coverings. No idea of an earlier posters reference to her Scottish granny wearing one being comparable.
My friend began wearing a headscarf and has told me how men are more respectful towards her now. That's just sad not liberating.

IPity

Good, I am glad you don't feel the need to justify.

I took my husbands name when I married, that's quite the hot potato on MN and the non feminist choice I made. I'm happy with that choice.

Wearing a headscarf is not a clothing choice. It's an act of submission and a very visible one. Thank you to the previous poster who shared her own experiences.

Language classes for all immigrants-excellent plan. Unfortunate the funding was cut in the first place, and linking it to extremism was clumsy and tenuous at best( aren't they mainly radicalised over the Internet and at the mosque? )My concern regarding Muslim women is that it won't reach those in most need - the ones who aren't allowed out of the house unaccompanied, who live subservient lives. Surely no culturally conservative' Muslim man would wish to empower his female relatives in such a way.

I'm still not sure why it was one religious group targeted. I've encountered people of other religion and none who have lived in the uk (even born here) who have spoken very little English.

Yes, the hijab and everything else people who follow Islaam do IS an act of submission - to God. It is based on the principle that they believe Islaam to be the ultimate truth.

It stands to reason that if you do not share the faith you will not follow its guidelines, and that is the bottom line!

To write derogatory comments about the Islamic faith under the guise of discussion shows what kind if hateful person YOU are - it is fine to disagree with someone in a nice manner but have to resort to ill mannered venting just exposes you own prejudices.

Not all Muslim women choose (or are made) to cover their hair and/or face. It's more cultural than religious and is one of those topics which is debated.

Not the point in a language thread, although I do wonder how the deaf manage in a country where the norm is for women and women not to really mix, and for women to cover the face outside the home.

A woman who wears the hijab may look down upon a woman who isn't a Muslim and doesn't dress modestly - and everyone will have a lot to say about that.

Some of the posters here are doing the same but the other way around - condemning and looking down on women who chose to obey God and values modesty as part of their faith.

Seriously need to be less narrow minded.

www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/hijab_1.shtml

Funny how modesty for men is a bit more straightforward and less restrictive. (from that link)

Most Muslims accept that for men everything between the navel and the knee is awrah and therefore should be covered at all times.

Women

Rules for women are more complicated. There are a number of scenarios for women:

In front of unrelated men (Muslim or non-Muslim), women must cover everything except the hands and face
In front of close male relatives, awrah is the navel to the knee and the stomach and the back
In front of other Muslim females, awrah is from the navel down to, and including, the knees
Awrah in front of non-Muslim women is a point of debate:
Some scholars say that women should cover all but the hands and face. This is to prevent non-Muslim women (who may not understand the rules regarding hijab) from describing the appearance of the hijab wearer to other men
Other scholars say that if a non-Muslim woman can be trusted not to describe a woman's appearance to other men, then she may reveal as much as she would in front of another Muslim woman in her presence.
The Hanafi school of thought, which is followed by most Muslims in the world, agree that the feet are not part of the awrah and therefore may be revealed.

Amongst other schools of thought a common opinion is that everything apart from a woman's face and hands is awrah. Scholars holding this opinion use this hadith to justify it:

Well mens and women's bodies are different lol - but the same principle to be modest applies to both sexes.