Guest post: "Muslim women are diverse, funny and opinionated – not #TraditionallySubmissive"

[MumsnetGuestPosts]

As a mother of two girls, I'm constantly anxious that they don't suffer from the gender penalty as they grow up. This is the penalty that props up the glass ceiling, that restricts their access to the corridors of power, that makes their pay packet lighter, or that reduces them to their body and looks, and continues to disproportionately burden them with childcare and household chores.

But as a Muslim mother I also worry that my daughters live in a society that does not see them for the people they are or give them the space to flourish as individuals. Instead, they are on a perilous slope towards being seen as part of a homogenous group of oppressed, dehumanised creatures. Front page headlines today proclaimed that "Muslims are not like us". It's yet another example of the constant hostility faced by Muslims – especially Muslim women – in the UK.

My heart sank last week when I woke up to the news that the Prime Minister had said Muslim women must do more to integrate. I mean, I love queueing, I can talk at length about traffic and weather, and I'm on Mumsnet. What more does he want?

His aim is to get more Muslim women to speak English and he announced a £20 million fund for English lessons. I've always been an advocate of how important it is to speak the main language of social engagement, and I've been involved in running workshops encouraging women to better express their voices and opinions. So I'm all for English lessons for those struggling with the language. But this was the same Prime Minister who cut £45 million funding for English lessons this summer.

His clumsy and lazy characterisation of the 'Muslim women problem' stitched together ideas of Muslim women as segregated from society and responsible for extremism, and led to the all-too-familiar headlines casting Muslim women as isolated, illiterate and oppressed. However, he admitted that there was no causal connection between not speaking English and extremism. But the damage is done. The misleading portrayal of Muslim women undoubtedly exacerbates an increasingly hostile environment; attacks against Muslims are up 275% since the Paris attacks and Muslim women make up 60% of the victims.

If I wasn't already angered enough at this, I nearly spat out my morning coffee when I read reports that the Prime Minister had privately suggested that a major reason young men are vulnerable to radicalisation is the "traditional submissiveness" of Muslim women.

I responded in the most British way possible – with sarcasm. After all, we are always being told to adopt British values.

"Actually, my husband runs my Twitter feed because I can't speak English #TraditionallySubmissive" I mocked on Twitter, adding "I bought a sports car and published a book (in English and eight other languages). I must be doing this wrong."

I wasn't the only one to feel incensed. Other Muslim women took up the hashtag. Dr Sukaina Hirji, a GP based in London, posted on her Facebook page "I and many others have been extremely hurt by David Cameron's article in The Times earlier this week, specifically (and incorrectly) targeting Muslim women's apparent inability to speak the English language and loosely linking this to radicalisation (multifactorial causes) and Female Genital Mutilation (cultural practice)."

She made a public call to Muslim women to "show solidarity and speak out against this discrimination" by tweeting and posting selfies during a coordinated period to create a Twitter storm with the hashtag #TraditionallySubmissive.

On Sunday evening, the hashtag was quickly trending in the UK and continued to trend until Monday morning, with over thirty thousand tweets sent so far. These ranged from pictures of Muslim women graduating, hiking, fundraising, skiing and boxing, to others holding placards listing their achievements - including speaking multiple languages.

Coverage of the Twitter storm has been global – and this is important, because women's voices must be taken seriously, and Muslim women are part of the 50% of our population that is consistently under-represented and under-served. Muslim women are vibrant, diverse, funny and yes, opinionated. And that's a good thing. We want to make things better for ourselves and for those around us. And we hope you will support us in challenging the idea that we are submissive, pathetic little flowers.

I don't know many Muslim women in my day to day life.

But there are a few at the chill gates. Two have complete facial covering and a black hijab. My 4 year old is scared by this. The other has to walk several paces behind her husband. I see them every day.

What on earth am I meant to say to my kids when they ask why the person wears a mask?

I try to remain open minded about religions and beliefs - I really do- but I find it very difficult to feel that these women are not being oppressed.

I think it's a wonderful idea for English lessons to be offered. I can't imagine living somewhere where I didn't speak the local language.

The hijab is neither here but there in this.
What I feel I that OP is minimising the struggle other Muslim women have, who are but so witty, high earning, hashtag aware, just because they don't speak English.
Being seen as a part os a homogenous victimised mass is not nice, but just bigging
oneself up to stand out does nothing to solve the problem, which is lack of language skills in many women.

But not in practice. I see women with faces covered every day with their male companions dressed in T-shirt and shorts (when its warmer obviously). Men wear whatever they please and not ye olde Saudi clothes.

I wear a veil and I appreciate that people who are not familiar with it will find it scary. Particularly if you haven't grown up in a multi cultural area, it can be shocking for you.

I grew up in London, have socialised with people from various countries and various religions and am unfazed by these differences - so although I appreciate where people's fear comes from, I honestly do think it's because there is very little socialisation - which is another can of worms!

like it is incredibly difficult - almost impossible - to socialise with someone whose face is almost entirely covered. If I smile - how can I see if it is reciprocated? Our faces communicate in so many ways. It makes me so sad to see women unable to communicate with other women at the school gates. Add to this a complete lack of English and it really doesn't lead to integration in any form.

The hijab is more than just covering up for men - it is purely an act of faith. We wear it when we pray, even when we are alone.

This can be difficult to understand (submission to God) unless you are religious I guess.

Roonerspism - it can be, but I don't think it's a hindrance if people are open.

You can tell when I'm smiling, and hear me when I talk to you. It doesn't stop conversation.

This guest post was started by a British Muslim women about British Muslim women in the UK, it's about our lives, why shouldn't we get to discuss that?

When will British muslim women be discussing those British muslim women's lives (or rather sadly, deaths) that are #NotTraditionallySubmissiveEnough and why honour based violence is most prevalent in muslim societies ?

Tulay Goren's father given life sentence for 'honour killing

Woman stabbed to death by family for loving wrong man

Honour' killer boasted of stamping on woman's neck

Westernised' wife 'murdered by husband

Parents Jailed For Life For Shafilea Murder

Yes, yes we know its Nothing To Do with Islam®.

Nothing at all to do with the plethora of rulings (including on Hijab) that place far more emphasis on women's chasteness and virtue then mens.

The sisterhood obsessed with swaddling themselves and promoting Islamic patriarchy and misogony don't need to and in fact don't give a stuff about the above expendable muslim women's diversity, humour and opinions.

All fine with Islamic society and anyone who says otherwise is a bigot and Islamophobe.

I rarely say women veiled when I came to London almost 30 years ago. The odd elderly lady with a gold mask, but never a young to middle aged woman, and certainly not a woman with a 'Lundun maite' accent.

I saw programme last week and the presenter was in the Egyptian desert when a sandstorm whipped up - I get covering up all skin and hair there - very practical. West London, not so. When the clothing rules were written, yes it made perfect sense - geographically and socially.

Actually mistressmia, there are lots of people in various organisations that are trying their best to deal with these things. Have a Google.

But if someone's face is covered, you really cannot. You can't see the mouth. As I have discovered. Vocab is muffled. I can't understand why anyone would choose this.

I don't want to derail the thread. Coverings aside, I completely agree with offering language lessons for a multitude of reasons.

I have family in the ME who have to cover. No choice and punishments given out by the moral police.

Ok its a choice in the uk, but when there is no choice it sucks. Women there would kill to have the right to choose, especially when it is debated issue and viewed as copying another cultures dress/custom.

I wonder if the op will come back to join discussion? Or is that not how these guest post things work?

Given there is no God and more people than not in the UK now believe there is none, yes it is hard to understand about submission to something people have been conned into believing exists.

I've worn one too when abroad in the Middle East. It is sexist. It sets you apart. It is submissive inducing. It is ridiculous. In fact many of us in the UK are offended by the sight of it. If Muslim men cannot control their sexual urges if they see a bit of female hair they should stay at home and only come out when accompanied by a female relative and then only if the man is fully clothed in a burkha. Why restrict women instead? Because it is an invented God devised by men to keep women down and control their sexuality.

Yes we will not ban head covering (nor the burka in the way France has done) because we are a decent tolerant people but do not think we do not know what that piece of cloth symbolises. It is not even neededfor the religion so why not take it off today?

And yes of course women and men who don't have good English should be thrown out after 2.5 years - we all support that plan and Cameron has made it clear this is not only a muslim issue. Well done Cameron here.

This is an interesting article on hair-covering:

"This modern-day movement, codified by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Taliban Afghanistan and the Islamic State, has erroneously made the Arabic word hijab synonymous with “headscarf.” This conflation of hijab with the secular word headscarf is misleading. “Hijab” literally means “curtain” in Arabic. It also means “hiding,” ”obstructing” and “isolating” someone or something. It is never used in the Koran to mean headscarf.

In colloquial Arabic, the word for “headscarf” is tarha. In classical Arabic, “head” is al-ra’as and cover is gheta’a. No matter what formula you use, “hijab” never means headscarf. The media must stop spreading this misleading interpretation.

Born in the 1960s into conservative but open-minded families (Hala in Egypt and Asra in India), we grew up without an edict that we had to cover our hair. But, starting in the 1980s, following the 1979 Iranian revolution of the minority Shiite sect and the rise of well-funded Saudi clerics from the majority Sunni sect, we have been bullied in an attempt to get us to cover our hair from men and boys."

t.co/WI0QDW68NZ

If you read the article I posted (Bec one) it mentions that two.

But language is not straightforward as that as you know, ridiculous example but the word hot can mean heat as well as sexy.

Arabic works in a similar fashion, words have a literal meaning and a practical meaning. For example, zakah is an annual charity adult Muslims pay annually. Literally the word means purify/ purification. The practical sense in which it is understood is payment of money. (The literal meaning refers to how paying charity purifies wealth)

Hijab may have a literal meaning however the practical meaning is well understood by millions world over.

• bbc article

• too

Like can I just clarify in response to something you posted. I don't need to be patronised and patted on the head because it's scary to see a veil if you don't live somewhere multicultural. That's a massive assumption.
I'm not scared of the veil; I feel sorry the women who wear it.

I was referring to Rooney who said her daughter was scared. And my own experience from visiting a town where they had not seen a Muslim before (so jumping when they saw me).

But I disagree, I think it helps immensely if you have grown up in a multi cultural environment, I think you are less narrow minded and don't mind different races/religioMrs etc.

Noeuf Pretending to believe that someone else's moral or political objections to something can only be attributable to "fear" is a fairly common tactic in discussions like this, I'm afraid.

OP says "I also worry that my daughters live in a society that does not see them for the people they are or give them the space to flourish as individuals. Instead, they are on a perilous slope towards being seen as part of a homogenous group of oppressed, dehumanised creatures".

Surely the answer to this is to ensure they never feel any pressure to cover up, to ensure they are free to participate in sports such as swimming and gymnastics. To ensure they can do everything that Muslim boys do. It is not a requirement of Islam to cover your hair, never mind your whole neck and body. And especially not for children. Where I live it is not uncommon for 5 year old girls to be made to wear hijab to school. They are indoctrinated from such a young age it is not possible for them to have free choice. It is very difficult for your personality to shine through if half of you is covered up, impossible if you are veiled.

And you are not being submissive to God by covering yourself, lets not pretend here. You are being submissive to men. Lest they not be tempted. And lets not forget the veiled women who use the veil to cover signs of domestic violence (far more common in the non-english speaking Muslim women in this country).

And it is good to hear from posters who have been forced to cover up in the past- their experience echoes friends of mine.

I am not in favour of banning anything but I think there needs to be a big push from within the Muslim community to say NO to hijabs and veils. To ensure that women are give the same chances in their life as men which cannot happen if this "dress code" continues.

Did you miss my post kestrel?

It is true, however, and it works both ways.

The generation who were born here and have grown up here usually have little problem integrating etc. But this fear (of the Unknown/of people who are 'different') prevents the older generations etc. from venturing out of their comfort zone - or even have been the object of racism/prejudice.

Which is clearly illustrated by some posters on this thread.

Actually techno mix, it is a requirement, and no, it does not stop Muslim women pursuing sports.

There is women's swimming in loads of sports centres to start with.

And no thank you, we certainly do not need liberating thanks very much. Perhaps it is your own mind that needs liberating.

It depends on interpretation. Granny didn't normally and she was very religious.

Like I just don't think that your views and those of some posters, including me, can be reconciled.
I'm not narrow minded, I'm not frightened but I believe that covering up is submissive and wrong. I can't believe that Islam is an equal religion for both men and women when I see women walking behind the husbands and sons, when I see them covered while their male relations are not, and while it is all on a sliding scale towards being banned from driving and worse in some cultures.

Rather than argue however, tempting as it is to try to get one's view understood, perhaps we could agree to disagree from our various viewpoints and wish each other well.