Refusing to vaccinate

[popsadaisy]

I went to vaccinate my one year old yesterday and I was so surprised when the nurse told me that some parents still refuse vaccinations. I am genuinely intrigued as to why this is?

People like this family are at risk because

a) the vaccine failed to immunise against mumps even though tests said at least 2 out of 5 were protected.

Immunity to mumps wanes, and is not effective in all who get it.

b) herd immunity failed within their family

You don’t get herd immunity within a family, unless that family literally never comes into contact with others.

^or was caused by the vaccine www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094818/^

Given the family had been vaccinated over the course of many years and no indication that any were recent (as was the case in the Suriname case, where the outbreak was the direct result of inadequately attenuated vaccine and occurred 2-3 weeks after vaccination), and it seems likely that it was transmitted within the family based on the description of how each of them came down with the illness, then there is no evidence to support that statement.

Do you have studies that support the idea of mumps acquired from vaccine many years after vaccination?

The family would be an interesting follow up study on what makes the vaccine less effective in some than in others.

That was 1998. They changed the mumps component after that

The current MMR rate in Pennsylvania is just over 91% (19-35 month olds) which has wobbled around that rate for the last 5 years but in 2012 was down around 87%. If you’re looking for a risk factor for the spread of mumps... an overall population that is below 90% vaccinated is a great place to start (Quinslick, Journal of Infectious Diseases, 2010)

I had measles as a child - before there were any immunisations against it. Also had mumps, which was painful, but not as worryingly ill as measles- nursed at home by my mother and grandmother , with the GP visiting daily and the district nurse coming in three times a day to give me cooling baths . I was very ill - its not like a bad case of chicken pox, and was nearly sent to an isolation hospital. I can remember the relief from everyone when I recovered.

My first DD was ready for her MMR immunisations when the Wakefield debacle began - as she had already had some problems I was nervous about any potential dangers . My DH was working in medical research at the time and looked at the published papers and said even on a cursory look it was so full of holes as a study - this was before the true depth of the conflicts of interest, fraud and ethical misdeeds were revealed.

Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are dam right irresponsible. Surely anyone can see the benefits outweigh the risks. I would much rather have my child alive and well than dead because of the stigma of vaccinations.

Jenny, your argument seems to be "some people wearing seatbelts die in car crashes and a few are injured by seatbelts so everyone should stop wearing them". It's terrible logic.

We know vaccinations sometimes don't work (for example varicella is quite ineffective and polio is very effective).

We know in rare cases people react to vaccine and can have side effects.

But is is very clear that on a population level, vaccines are incredibly effective. And protect most people. Just like seatbelts.

Section on the measle vaccination for children being made compulsory has just been on good morning Britain!

About bloody time too.

I can't see what difference this will make. Anti-vaxxers won't suddenly allow their children to be vaccinated just because it's compulsory. They'll become further entrenched in their view that it's all part of a government-pharma conspiracy.

If a parent believes vaccinations will harm their child then the threat of financial penalties, banning their child from the school system or even jail time will not do anything to sway their opinion. (Thinking about this logically: what would it take to convince you to do something to your child that you genuinely believed would cause irreversible damage?)

Unless 'compulsory' means authorities will have the right to vaccinate a child without parental permission I don't see the point.

What vaccines aren't necessary??!!!!

Eastie, the experience of No Jab No Pay in Australia (too soon for evaluation of No Jab No Play I understand) was a modest increase in the overall vaccination rate. It seems that the unvaccinated kids include not only parents who have made the conscious choice, but those who have put it off/can’t be arsed.

I think a hell of a lot more needs to be done to understand the motivations and behavioural interventions that would be successful, particularly among those who aren’t totally entrenched and actively spreading misinformation. There have been other policies where a degree of compulsion/penalty indicates to certain groups that the government was serious about x issue, whereas voluntary compliance was deemed a sign that the government didn’t think it was that important.

Jessy, I think it's likely that there is a small number of parents who have either forgotten, can't be bothered or are too disorganised to follow the vaccine schedule. Those are the parents will who respond to the threat of financial penalties, school bans etc.

However the vast majority of anti-vaxxers I have come across (in London anyway) are middle-class, affluent and will in no way be impacted or care about taking a financial hit.

Across many states in the US I believe the vaccination rate is lowest in wealthier areas and much higher in lower income ones.

Added to this, countries like France and Italy have made vaccinations compulsory and currently both have a higher** rate of measles infection than the U.K. So again, I just don't see the point other than showing the government is doing something.

To your last point, I've said on previous threads that there is a big difference between parents who haven't vaccinated because they are anti-vaxxers and those who have hesitated because they are worried, scared or nervous about vaccines. The latter are parents who can be talked round if they feel there concerns are listened to (I was one of them). However on all previous threads I found myself drowned out by the "any parent who hasn't vaccinated is a selfish idiot and there is no point engaging with them" angry crew.

On MN there is no space to discuss vaccine safety without the thread descending into warfare. You're either completely pro-vaccine (and agree that if vaccine reactions occur, no matter how severe they are, it is always better than getting the illness itself) or you are anti-vaxx. No in between.

The only thing that will increase the uptake of vaccination is a significant outbreak. With tragic consequences.

Anti vaxxers are so sure they are right. You can't change their mindset. It's a bit like flat earthers. Just as mad and irrational, but I don't think being a flat earther can result in serious illness or death.

Eastie, you seem to be basing this on your personal experience rather than data - which I get, but looking at the data that has come out of Australia (under 2% registered as conscientious objectors before it was removed) I’m not sure there’s evidence Britain is different?

France has brought in compulsory vaccination precisely because its child vax rates were so low and left it at much higer risk of outbreak (which you rightly point out has happened). It’s only been in place a little over a year so claiming it’s failed/it’s tokenism seems pretty unfair and premature; it’s going to take longer to be able to evaluate it for effectiveness. Ditto Italy. There’s a generation of the impact of disinformation to fix.

Just gonna leave this here...

-Why do the lives of the "tiny" percentage of vaccine injured/dead children matter so much less than those injured/dead from vaccine preventable diseases? Should both not matter equally?

-why do we have a vaccine compensation scheme in the uk that is on record as having paid out for brain encephalopathy that presents as autism?

-How many children die each year of vaccine preventable diseases vs how many children die from SIDs following vaccines?

-The reporting of vaccine injuries/deaths in the UK lacks real transparency as it conflicts with public healths vaccine policy so the true picture is never known.

-Why are we injecting pregnant woman with vaccines that contain toxins that can pass the blood brain barrier without not one single safety trial being done.

-Until the time a complete vaxed vs unvaxed study is carried out no one can ever truly denounce links between vaccines to developmental conditions. (The danish one was not a complete study)

-What is the explanation for the explosion of developmental & autoimmune disorders in the UK in recent years?

-Explain why our vaccine schedule has double the amount of vaccines compared to countries like Japan who also happen to have half the rates of developmental disorders such as autism & adhd.

Oh & also "White privilege" is it only white folk who choose not to vaccinate?? Interesting!

A large number of 'anti vaxers' are in fact 'ex vaxers' who have unfortunately experienced the side effects of vaccines & quite rightly passionate about changing how we do this. The vaccine debate is toxic & a more open & transparent discussion about finding a middle ground here.

The whole "you only get your info from social media" & "ban them from school" chat is patronising to say the least & merely serves to make those who question how we do this even more staunch in their position!

Disgusting comments.

Have any of you vaxxers seen the ingredients list to some vaccinations.

Yuk. Have some respect foryour children and actually check what's in those unnecessary injections. Have some faith outside of the bloody crowd controlling government.

My god the world has put its faith in the wrong bloody place.

Absolutely disgusting, and they talk about us being ill informed!

Where I live, children who are not vaccinated do not receive any benefits or free child care . It's funny how even the most dedicated anti-vaxxers suddenly change their minds when they are hurt in the hip pocket.

Birdie6

Where I live, children who are not vaccinated do not receive any benefits or free child care . It's funny how even the most dedicated anti-vaxxers suddenly change their minds when they are hurt in the hip pocket.

They don't change their minds. If they have no choice they have no choice. If they had a choice they wouldn't vaccinate.

People have resorted to canibalism in situations where they literally had no other choice in order to survive. You wouldn't poke fun at their swift change in ethics/morals, but you scoff at antivaxxers being forced into a corner and given no choice. This is one reason why there is a high number of unvaccinated children among wealthy families. Luckily for them they don't have to choose between vaccinating and eating.

I find it hard to believe that an incredibly stretched and depleted nhs would offer unnecessary vaccinations.

I find it hard to believe that the WHO, nhs, doctors, various medical professionals are all wrong.

My fiancé works in a hospital treating patients and therefore obviously has a medical background. Is he wrong too?

Of course all of the above are wrong! An anti-vaxxer with zero medical qualifications has done some googling and has a theory. They must be right...

and the government does not lie then, you need to do a bit of research in vaccines before you start saying what you have been conditioned to think the government lies to us all the time and uses scare tactics to get us to do what they want us to, did you now that the companies that make them are not responsible if your child develops a reaction to the vaccine you can not claim anything because they have been given a free pass by the government you have to foot the bill because they can not be held responsible why do that if they are safe and not dangerous

@popsadaisy - you asked if any child had actually had anything happen to the as a result of vaccination. My DD went into anaphylactic shock and ultimately cardiac arrest, she spent several days in the icu fighting for her life.

I'm in favour of vaccinations in general, but my DD will not be having any more until she can consent herself and arrange to have them at the hospital with a crash cart on stand by.

This type of reaction is very rare, but it does happen. I'm also allergic (anaphylaxis) but my DD is adopted so my history didn't matter when making the initial decision to vaccinate.

I'm also painfully aware that some hcp's refuse to acknowledge adverse reactions (including my dd's) so some measure of distrust is justified.

Anti vaxxers are idiotic.

It's like saying, "well, I refuse to put my child in a carseat. Because I would never drive so recklessly and endanger my child.
Also, my friend, has a cousin, who was in an accident, he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, and the fireman said to him that 'mate, you would have died if you were wearing your belt', so that's evidence enough for ME!"

And you can show them footage of test dummies, and photos of crushed cars and kids flung from cars...
But they'll just say stupid things like" well, they must have been driving badly".

lockit
"Have any of you vaxxers seen the ingredients list to some vaccinations."

Have you actually seen the consequences of a child suffering from measles? It's not just a 'bad rash'. Children DIE. If that's an acceptable risk for you to out in your child. The great. Go and send them to play on the railways whilst you're at it... I mean, the chances of them getting hit by a train is so low anyway.

It’s evolution in practice.