To ask why people don't vaccinate their DC even though we know that it doesn't cause Autism?

[TheHouseOnBellSt]

www.thespainreport.com/16953/six-year-old-boy-with-diphtheria-in-catalonia-dies/

A 6 year old boy in Catalonia has died of Diphtheria. Why are people still anti-vaccinations?

Why? My SIL has not and is not vaccinating her DS. He's 14 months now and MIL is so worried.

One of the issues with the MMR debacle is that there were many, many parents of slightly older autistic children who retrospectively, once Wakefield had published his "study" were like 'Yeah, that was when it happened. That was when the regression started. This added immense weight and publicity to his "study"

Alot of this, talking to parents of the children I worked with (who are, rather scarily for me, off to FE and things ) was in part a deseration to have something to hang it on, but also that the age of the MMR 12/13 months is a time of huge development - so any issue begins to become apparent. But that causal link was very seductive.

This is only the experience of many of 'my' families - probably 15 or so children. I wouldn't claim it as scientific.

OP - Vaccines do trigger catastrophic reactions in a small number of children. So imho it is not unreasonable to want to avoid unnecessary ones.

Rubella is one such unnecessary vaccine. It is such a mild childhood disease that many people don't even know that they have had it and it's only dangerous for babies of non-immune women. It is in DD's best interests to have rubella and be immune for life. If not, she can be vaccinated in her late teens. Rubella vaccine is completely unnecessary for DS as well, since he is never going to be pregnant and so he has not had it. (Before anyone says "Ooh but what if they give rubella to a pregnant woman", let's all agree that as mothers, our primary responsibility is to our children and that we are not in the business of taking risks for our babies for the sake of adults who should be responsible for their own health and safety).

Chicken Pox is not necessary either, imho. DC can live with those few nearly invisible little spots and now are immune for life.

" Measles isn't dangerous to most people, i had it as a kid, and most other things ."

OK, I accept that's true, it is your lived experience.

Now try this one.

Measles vaccination isn't dangerous to most people, i had it as a kid, and most other vaccinations

Happy with that? I am, it's true for me, it's my lived experience

Now here's the crucial one.

Of every 1,000 children who catch measles, one or two will likely die

Even with vaccine damage (few things in life are totally safe!), the mortality rate from vaccines is going to be way, way less than this.

Therefore, vaccinating is safest course of action, by far.

" Measles isn't dangerous to most people, i had it as a kid, and most other things ."

OK, I accept that's true, it is your lived experience.

Now try this one.

Measles vaccination isn't dangerous to most people, i had it as a kid, and most other vaccinations

Happy with that? I am, it's true for me, it's my lived experience

Now here's the crucial one.

Of every 1,000 children who catch measles, one or two will likely die

Even with vaccine damage (few things in life are totally safe!), the mortality rate from vaccines is going to be way, way less than this.

Therefore, vaccinating is safest course of action, by far.

I am autistic. My father was autistic, as was his brother and their father. I have three children with ASCs. I do not for one second believe it has anything to do with vaccines.
I also have a dd with narcolepsy and I'm damned sure it was caused by the swine flu vaccine. I base my findings on evidence.

"the age of the MMR 12/13 months is a time of huge development - so any issue begins to become apparent"

That is one possibility. Another is that all those parents are not lying when they say their children started having seizures hours after the vaccination and started regressing almost immediately, losing previously mastered words, diminishing interaction, and eventually settling at full-blown severe autism.

Pandemrix

cote I am not saying parents are lying. I'm reporting what parents have said. Apologies if you felt there was an implication.

Other families will blame vaccines for their children having Autism. I don't blame them. It is so tough raising a child on the spectrum.

Nights like tonight I'm ready to blame anyone who will listen, my Aspergers daughter has driven me & DH to the limit. :(

I am still totally convinced that MMR has nothing to do with it, God I wish it was that easy! Don't have a jab & your life will be normal..... my life hasn't been normal for the last 9 years..

I love my daughter dearly, but I wouldn't wish dealing with a child on the spectrum, day in & day out, on anyone :(

Kippers it gets easier, then more difficult, then easier! The gaps get bigger! If it helps, one has just finished his second year at uni and is doing fine. He's two hundred miles away and although he needs support both from us and from the uni, he's getting bloody good marks, has made friends and seems pretty happy most of the time.

Wideopenspace - But parents would have to be lying about the seizures hours after the vaccine if it is mainly coincidence that the timing of the vaccine is about when disorders like autism first come to attention.

I invite you to look around the SN topic and read the stories of some of the parents there. Then see if you can disregard them all as parents who are just looking for something to blame for their DC's autism, whose vaccinations took place at a time when autism would be diagnosed anyway.

Before anyone says "Ooh but what if they give rubella to a pregnant woman", let's all agree that as mothers, our primary responsibility is to our children and that we are not in the business of taking risks for our babies for the sake of adults who should be responsible for their own health and safety).

Yeah, fuck those who couldn't have the vaccination because of immuno-suppression / allergies / growing up in a country where it might not be accessible or just don't know if they've had it or not. You're already a mother, you owe their chance to be the same nothing. They may miscarry, or give birth to a profoundly damaged baby, but you and yours are a ok, so all is dandy. Fuck that. And that's only based on your very narrow example. This thread is depressing, and a fair few of you should be ashamed of your wilful ignorance.

cote I was specifically talking about parents I personally have worked with - perhaps I didn't make that clear, if so, I'm sorry. It is not my intention to disregard anyone's experiences.

kipper - If it makes you feel any better, I don't think anyone says that Asperger's Syndrome might be triggered by vaccines or infections. The concern is re Regressive Autism - where a viral infection or a vaccination triggers seizures, regression, and full-blown non-verbal severe autism.

I have a de novo chromosome translocation so my mother was advised not to have me vaccinated until the specialists could look in to it.
She chased and chased and I'm sure that report will arrive any day now.... Two months off my 29th birthday.

My two brothers are fully vaccinated.

Dawn, thank you. You have just thrown a verbal life raft to me when I thought I might sink. DD1 is soon starting the teenage years.

You have a child at Uni, and you are on the spectrum yourself. I am so tired right now, but can I PM you about stuff tomorrow. I would really appreciate your thoughts on a few things

Gileswithachainsaw

There is a vaccine damage payment from government. There is a small risk that vaccines can cause brain damage, the same there is if you take any medicine or have any medical procedure.

No scheme has paid out for a vaccine causing autism with the exception of one case in Italy where the child has a whole host of medical problems including autism and the court could not pinpoint which medical problems were caused by vaccine, which by inappropriate medical treatment and which were idiopathic. The court therefore gave compensation for all the child's needs. This has been jumped on by the anti vax groups as 'proof' of autism caused by vaccine.

They will have the rubella at 13 like I did. Not as a baby. How bloody pointless.

Er I don't understand this, rubella is usually mild, the danger is to a foetus if the mother contracts it, so the only reason to have it is if you are going to be pregnant - to protect your child, or if you are likely to come in to contact with pregnant women and again it is to protect their child. So why 13?

Some people have very good reasons to not vaccinate, like the poster up thread who's child had a bad reaction. Some people cannot have vaccines grown in eggs because they have an egg allergy.

I have no problem with anyone in that category.

I have a problem with bad reasons, the worst I have heard is,"It makes them cry and I don't like it".

So the medical establishment and GPs must change in how they approach the vaccine issue

Medicine is a science, and science changes when new things are discovered so it might be that at the time vaccines were contraindicated for you medical conditions but later studies have shown no problem. Also the vaccines themselves change. Given your age if you had polio vaccine it was probably on a sugar cube, now it is jab, then it was a live vaccine, now it isn't.

"Yeah, fuck those who couldn't have the vaccination because of immuno-suppression / allergies / growing up in a country where it might not be accessible"

Like me, you mean? I grew up in one such country and had all childhood diseases as a result.

I don't and would not expect every baby in the world to take a risk for my sake and be vaccinated against their own interests.

"You're already a mother, you owe their chance to be the same nothing."

Umm no. I don't owe any woman in the world the chance to be a mother. If you think you do, I hope you are putting your 'body' where your mouth is and offering your services as a surrogate mother or your eggs to whoever can't get pregnant.

Your foul-mouthed heartstring-tugging to one side, it is ethically indefensible to make a baby take a risk if it's not in her interest, in order to benefit a hypothetical adult she may or may not ever come in contact with. This is precisely why these vaccines are not mandatory.

Cote, my view is that VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. I say that as a mum to 1, quite possibly 2, daughters with Aspergers. I realise this is not a popular view, but I have yet to come across anything in my scientific career to contradict this.

& this is not soapbox posturing, it is living daily with the affects of Autism for the last 9 years...

Because the last time I checked we lived in society where it is my choice. I'm not stupid, ill-informed, uneducated or any of those things either.

I wasn't permitted any vaccines from being 1 up until I was 11 and was given the MMR. I caught what felt like everything in thise intervening years. It was pretty fucking horrible. I decided that there was no reason for my children to go through that unless allergies/medical reasons came into play.

There are still vaccines I've not had. I never had the TB or whooping cough ones. Whenever my classmates had vaccines at school I wasn't allowed them, I'm told the six needles were a trial, but that's one I never had to endure. It wasn't until I went to uni that I had the then 'new fangled' meningitis vaccine. Which was sort of ironic, as meningitis was the reason I'd had so few immunisations to start with.

All of my children are up to date with their jabs. Even the toddler, despite his older sibling having Asperger's Syndrome. I would never put a child through childhood illnesses that I can make reasonable steps to prevent. I have no time for lifestyle anti-vaxx folk, they take the piss out of those who live the daily panic of these diseases.

So, anyone planning to refuse the Meningitis B vaccine in September?

If you think you do, I hope you are putting your 'body' where your mouth is and offering your services as a surrogate mother or your eggs to whoever can't get pregnant.

Like me you mean? I can't get pregnant. I did discuss the possibility of being a surrogate for someone before that was known, and the subsequent surgeries left me in a position where pregnancy would be very dangerous, even if achieved (staggeringly unlikely). What was that about 'heart-string' tugging?

Vaccinations aren't mandatory, no. Challenging ill informed understanding of risk / herd immunity and yes, sometimes downright selfishness, is entirely 'ethically defensible'. Nowhere did I demand anyone vaccinate.

UK government admitted that swine flu vaccine can cause narcolepsy in 2013. Vaccines are not all safe. There are risks. we don't hear a lot about them though as to be against vaccines is to risk being a social outcast. Just look at the vitriol on this thread, and probably the vitriol that follows this post......