Labour Party and gender

[Mobley52]

I've seen quite a few threads where people have said they would not vote for Labour because of their stance on gender.

Would somebody be able to explain in simple terms why this is please

Many thanks

the proposal is banning of conversion therapy. you are the one who doesn’t seem to know what it is. that’s what you asked.

A law banning conversion therapy needs to define what conversion therapy is if it is to do its job properly. That's pretty much rule one of lawmaking.

This is why the GRA is such bad law because it describes "male" and "female" as "genders", when they are actually words for sex, and then doesn't define any of these words. So are we supposed to trust the same people to get this one right?

it is defined in that link pretty clearly.

@Alwaystired94
If a psychologist was gender critical, so didn't believe a trans person could literally become the other sex. How could they protect themselves from accusations that they were try to change their patient's gender identity?

It needs to be defined in the legislation.

funnily enough they haven’t been elected yet

tbey should be a professional - their own opinions don’t come into it. how would we like it if other medical professionals allowed their opinions to alter how they treated us? religious doctors or midwives beating unmarried mothers and so on?

so don’t suppress or try to cure their gender identity. that doesn’t mean not talk about gender dysphoria.

They have a track record for being very bad at this.

Not following?

You introduce a ban on therapy aimed at changing someone's sexual orientation and you leave gender identity out of it.

Exactly. They are not the same thing, and in fact transitioning gay and lesbian children can be a type of conversion therapy too.

Here's a question. If someone transitions and then detransitions, have they changed their gender identity?

Or thinking about it another way, if a patient has therapy then desists, who can say whether they were converted or not?

Or if a child joins an online trans community and is told they are probably trans themselves, have they been converted? Or is it just one way?

yes

So if someone is going to change their identity, would it not be better for them to do so before they make any irreversible changes to their body?

and again that is covered under conversion therapy. as if they are ‘curing’ someone of the gays by telling them they are trans - that’s conversion therapy also.

TW are not biologically female so would not be under a female only space.

It's quite clear from interviews that he thinks men with a GRC are the same as "biological women" in terms of female only spaces. When talking to Jane from London the other day he went on about "the law for 20 years" ie the GRA.

Their professional medical opinion would probably be that no one can change sex, and that real gender dysphoria is incredibly rare. But working on that basis might put them behind bars so it puts them in a bit of a pickle doesn't it?

considering the rates of detrans isn’t particularly high it’s not a plus point for conversion therapy.

no children should be having body parts removed obviously but if you agree with that, then once they are a legal adult it’s up to them surely.

how is it i hear how when it comes to women’s rights it’s a slippery slope to remove protections but it’s a bloody argument when it’s different groups rights?

say that therapist also held the views like Andrew Tate and was worried about being accused of misogyny? know how to avoid that? not being misogynistic.

so what are they in therapy for? are they depressed?
if someone is depressed and happens to be trans and their therapist starts spouting GC views yeah that’s not professional behaviour.

if you can’t see how that is an issue then you’re either not understanding how therapists should interact with their patients or just don’t care as long as it’s not helping someone who is trans.

Yes this is the contradiction from Labour

You don't seem to be appreciating that even if the legislation allows for discussion to take place, that therapists won't want to go there through fear of being accused of conversion practices.

It's really not as clear cut as you're making it out to be.

You're entitled to your views.

I think that whatever age someone is, if there is any change they might want to detransition they should be strongly discouraged from transitioning in the first place.

but again, why would it need to be discussed everytime? it’s not as clear cut as you are making it either - i never thought i’d see people advocating for not banning conversion therapy.

Don't forget he also said at the end that "well, male feelings can be hurt, so...". He doesn't give a shit about women or their need for guaranteed female-only safe spaces

what would be the criteria for might detransition?

The concern about a conversion therapy ban stems from witnessing how it has played out in other countries, Canada is a particularly concerning example. See image for acts which are now illegal in Canada.

The definition of conversion therapy in your link includes psychiatric and psychological intervention.

We know that a significant number of children referred to the Tavistock had a complex range of needs. IIRC 90% had comorbidities including neuro diversity (mostly autism), a history of childhood trauma (including sexual abuse), anxiety and depression and factors such a being bought up in the care system. Time To Think by Hannah Barnes covers this is detail using data from the Tavi. We also know from detransitioners that many feel they were not given enough time to explore issues around gender identity.

We also know that 85 - 90% of children will reconcile with their biological sex as they progress through puberty if a supportive watchful waiting rather than affirmative approach is taken. Many will reach the conclusion that they are same sex attracted.

Data from the Tavi also shows that 99% of minors prescribed puberty blockers will go on to take cross sex hormones.

I do not think anyone condones the abhorrent practice of conversion therapy but the evidence so far suggests that watchful waiting, for minors, and talking therapy may lead to fewer people making the wrong decision and undergoing irreversible medical treatment.

Please understand that this concern has nothing to do with persuading people they aren't trans but a desire to prevent children (and adults) being put on a medical pathway which can lead to infertility, sexual dysfunction and life long health problems.

Any conversion therapy ban must make room for talking therapy for anyone who is questioning their gender identity.