Labour Party and gender

[Mobley52]

I've seen quite a few threads where people have said they would not vote for Labour because of their stance on gender.

Would somebody be able to explain in simple terms why this is please

Many thanks

Starmer has mentioned women’s prisons, hospital wards and “elite” sport, though I don’t believe that’s an exhaustive list.

The Bridget Phillipson interview appears to be about what toilets a trans woman with a GRC should use (with her saying that they would presumably use women’s toilets). I think the toilet issue is a complicated one tbh (in terms of how it’s policed, particularly with public facilities) but I’m not sure if any party is saying they’d ban transwomen from women’s toilets - and, if one is, I’d genuinely be very interested to know how they’d enforce it.

Where did you see the exhaustive list?

How can Labour represent my views if they aren't even sure/ can't define who I am?

Well you’ve just made yourself look totally uninformed and ridiculous there haven’t you? Because this is not about trans. It’s about women’s rights, protections and dignities.

Men as a sex class are responsible for the majority of violent and sexual crime. You allow self-identified ‘transwomen’ into women’s and girls’ safe spaces including, let’s not forget, places where women and children are distinctly vulnerable, and yes, you’ll get the nice transwomen ‘who just want to live in peace’ but hey, surprise surprise, you’ll also open the flood gates to every male perv and deviant who suddenly ‘identifies’ as a woman purely to hurt, abuse and get sexual titillation.

You heard about the woman who was raped on a single sex NHS ward, and was told she was lying because there was ‘no male on the ward’? Yeah. Get used to shit like that with self ID when Labour get in. Women’s rights and protections gone. Children sent on a path to sterilisation and disfigurement. Women gaslighted, unable to assemble or have political agency and told they’re transphobic dinosaurs who ‘hoard rights’ to themselves. It’s like the Taliban where only male voices and male quality of life matters.

Self ID is ridiculous. The only way to protect women is to remove the legal fiction of gender identity and segregate safe spaces by biological sex.

All the so-called ‘Left wing’ parties, who are supposed to be all about social justice, are all fully committed to throwing girls and women under the bus. And then gaslight them and cancel them if they get ‘chippy’ about it. The Lib Dems and Greens don’t even want you as a member if you don’t put on the Handmaid cloak and pledge allegiance to the gender nonsense.

It’s not just a ‘niche’ issue. A lot of us are politically homeless because this is so fundamental. Once women’s rights go, we’ll face an even bigger battle to try and get them back.

@Effiebreast

I also think mixed in with women’s right to safe spaces, loss of identity fairness in sport etc there’s a prurient distaste for trans people much like that directed at gay folk back in the day.

You're being disingenuous. Gay people genuinely just wanted to live their lives. Gay men never pushed for access to women's showers, changing rooms, sports teams, prizes and fellowships. Nor did they ever try to colonize another group by changing the very definition of said group without the agreement of its members.

KS reminds me of ‘can’t decide Dave’ (who agrees with each mate in the pub) from the Fast Show
Calling people the ‘Gender Criticals’ like one homogeneous group is really not helpful
It isn’t a case of denying trans people’s existence; it’s fighting for women’s rights.
I’d love to see any political party tackle VAWG- but how? If you can’t define woman?

Hear hear @GrumpyPanda
Well said
Gay people just wanted their rights- absolutely fair and proper. They weren’t trying to trample on another group’s rights.
False equivalence
That old chestnut should be debunked

I also now see that the Tories have backtracked to “we’re still thinking about it” on the CT ban.

That doesnt surprise me. The Tories have done so many U turns on this issue they make people dizzy.😵‍💫 This is intentional. They lie through both their faces.

The bottom line is the Tories don't give a shit about women and no one knows what a Tory government will bring beyond more chaos and pain for women.🙄

Key difference between Tories and Labour is the Tories are listening to women on this issue whereas Labour continue to gaslight.

Well it's blowing up in their face that's for sure

IIRC the Communist Party were very sound in their statement on The Woman Question which, as someone remarked, probably makes them Far Right in some peoples' eyes.

One of the questions right now.

Was keir right when he said about how biological sex is clearly defined in the notes of the equality act?

"Bearing in mind that very few GRC’s are applied for (usually around 30 per year)
Not sure where you got that figure from but that is a small fraction of the real number. The last year I can see published Government data for was 2021-2022 where there were 466 applications. The number has been steadily climbing for the last decade."

Last year, 2023/2024, a provisional figure of 1,397 applications has been published.

Isnt there a court case later in the year, where the exact meaning of sex in the EqA is being determined?

For Women Scotland are involved.

It was laid out clear on the debate this evening. RS multiple times, 'I understand that to protect female spaces we need to ensure biological sex is key.' KS 'I understand VAWG and domestic abuse and will protect women's spaces but we also have to be inclusive...those not comfortable with gender born'

It should be ‘clearly defined’ but lots of Stonewall captured organisations including the education sector, the civil service, the NHS, the police, the arts and many big corporate and retail organisations are wilfully ignoring this to appear inclusive but making changes of language, toilets, facilities, pronouns etc and adopting wholesale decision based on ‘gender identity’ (not sex). This is to the detriment of women - and without the consent or even consultation of women.

This filters down…

Women’s groups unable to meet and assemble without aggressive threatening TRAs in black masks and violent signs putting a halt on proceedings and scaring the delegates - police do nothing. Plenty of this evidenced on MN.

People losing their jobs and livelihoods and ‘cancelled’ for stating biology is real and not an ‘identity’ - Kathleen Stock, Graham Linehan, Rosie Duffield etc. JK Rowling said she could paper her (big) house with the death threats she receives.

The women raped on the NHS single sex ward disbelieved because there was ‘no male’ on the ward. So male crime figures are obfuscated, more and more ‘women’ now commit child abuse and rape because the men who actually commit those crimes state that they are women and it just gets pandered to and accepted.

Same for health outcomes and research. If you can’t define women, without men being included, there is no focus on female biology and cures for female conditions. We end up with ridiculousness like ‘chest feeding’ and ‘cervix havers’. Strangely doesn’t affect men’s health conditions though. No similar confusion of language there!!

Women’s sports become obselete and the podiums are full of physically dominant male-bodied ‘transwomen’.

In places where low wage staff are put in charge of changing rooms - men who want access to undressed children and women can easily get it. M&S will happily let men use female changing rooms and they have notoriously ‘enjoyed themselves’ in women’s underwear, around women, and put them back on the rack (soiled) and written lurid reviews for other autogentophiles to copy. Again documented on MN.

Grotty gender neutral toilets are becoming common. An easy and cheap way for builders to get round the problem but fewer spaces for women to have dignity and privacy and safety away from men. Doesn’t work the other way though. Plenty of places have a ‘gender neutral’ (unisex) toilet and a male toilet but nothing for women only. This includes Brighton’s Women’s Hospital! A hospital for women with gynae conditions, maternity functions etc…vulnerable, bleeding, upset but not afforded the dignity of a toilet without men.

And all of this - women’s sex based rights not upheld or respected is because men and their feelings get the priority when institutions and politicians allow it.

The Conservatives think that women's single sex spaces should be just that - single sex spaces.* *Not because they are particularly supportive of women in general, but because they are not stupid enough to think that most people actually believe transwomen are women.

Labour (possibly depending on which Labour politician is talking) think that 'safe spaces' or 'women's spaces' are important, but it's deliberately not always clear what they mean by 'safe' or indeed by 'women'.

IANAL, but if I remember correctly...
The equality act defines a woman as "a female of any age". For years it was debated hotly whether "female" here meant biological female only or would include a bio male with a GRC. Then last year a court ruled that "female" in the act meant in the legal sense not the biological sense, so single sex spaces can include males if they have a GRC.

This is why the Tories propose to amend the act, and why some feel that Labour making it easier to get a GRC compromises women's spaces too much.

That's my understanding of it but there are definitely people around on here who have a better grasp on it than me. However even among legal experts there is quite large differences in interpretation, which is why I think amending the law to be clearer would be a good thing.

Yes, I think they are deliberately leaving themselves loopholes, so that later on they can say 'Yes, but when we said safe spaces for females, we also meant the ones who are biologically male'.

KS will continue to use language as a way of masking what his actual policies will be. Its not just on women's rights where he plays a game of smoke and mirrors but it feels like once you see it you can't unsee it.

So protecting women's spaces? Ah yes of course we will. But how are you defining women? And then you see different shadow front benchers saying totally different things.

Talk about the Equality Act and protecting those covered by it? Oh very reassuring, thank you. But then going on to say that those born as the wrong gender (a concept I completely reject anyway) need to be protected too. Which means......?

So yes, expect to see lots of steps back or forwards, and no way to know which or in what areas, for single sex spaces, teaching in schools, self ID etc. Snake oil salesman trying to sell whatever he thinks people want to hear and absolutely no way to know what it means in reality. Though based on his previous answers I am pretty gloomy.

Self ID which is supported by Labour, Lib Dem’s and the greens will increase the number of men claiming they are transitioning simply to access women’s single sex spaces with ulterior motives. I was thinking of all the single sex spaces I currently use or have used used (Lido changing rooms, public toilets, breast screening clinic, women’s yoga class) and how I would be very wary about it if they were also being used by trans women. Unfortunately some female nurses have had experience of this as described in this Times article

www.thetimes.com/article/9f995274-a6f8-4da9-8f19-401440ceeb08?shareToken=902388c65b0c1ab09c91116842a3c48f

I can’t vote for a party that doesn’t know what a woman is.

Labour do not support self ID
This is a misrepresentation.

Self ID means the only criterion for someone's sex/gender is what they say they are.
Labour will require a gender dysphoria diagnosis and a legal process for someone to transition.

I completely understand why some women are annoyed with Labour's position but misrepresenting it as "Self ID" is not OK, it's misleading. Especially when there is an election on. At least try to be accurate rather than partisan.

Worth noting the Conservatives are planning to maintain the concept of "legal women" and to leave it up to service providers to decide whether to apply the "single sex exemptions" in the EA. So under the Conservatives there is still no guarantee a changing room in a gym or shop, or a yoga class would be single sex.

The Conservatives are being extremely slippery and disingenuous about this but somehow it rarely gets mentioned on these threads. You'd think Labour had been in power, putting male rapists in women's prisons and unisex toilets in schools all this time, not the Tories 🙄