DS probably dropping out of uni. DH horrified.

[iliketosing]

DS got into an excellent uni, top 3 in the world for his course, or something. Anyway, a degree from here would set him up for life career wise. Except that a degree from an excellent uni is no good to him if he is dead from throwing himself under a train - as I am trying to explain to my DH (sorry I've never posted on mumsnet and am not entirely sure of all the abbreviations.) It's a scandal no-one wants to talk about but one of the reasons he is unhappy is that he is on a corridor with 5 chinese girls who don't speak English and stick together like glue. 1/3 of his uni is Chinese, and most of them don't have the language skills to communicate in English. 1/3 are international - also v cliquey. And 1/3 are British kids who have been consummately unfriendly to say the least. He has always been very shy and possibly, because he is tall and beautiful, seems arrogant and aloof from afar. Inside he's a specky geek. He had a gap year and went off to an organised camp in terror because of his shyness; to his joy and amazement he made friends easily and quickly with about 10 others in the group, all from up North in the UK, and actually fell for a girl from Newcastle. So now he wants to leave the amazing rep Russel group uni (in the South...) and start again next year - at Leeds/Newcastle/up North. I think that if he has made every effort to acclimatise and is still miserable by Xmas then he should leave, incurring less debt than if he stayed the year and then left. And he really is trying - he's exercising regularly, seeing a counsellor, is moving to different accomodation, has joined all kinds of groups. But remains isolated and lonely. I don't know if he should try an antidepressant, I feel sad about thinking this and that perhaps I am medicalising understandable unhappiness. My DH thinks he should stay and be miserable as he is likely to cheer up eventually and will regret forever such an impulsive and crazy move. I wonder if anyone else has been a parent in this situation? I don't feel too upset about it as I started anti-depressants a month ago!! (because of how awful I felt for him.) I feel pretty tefloned now. I wish my DS was too.

I was at Cambridge and my group of friends was split roughly 50/50 in terms of people who’d been to state / private school.

Getting tearful reading this
Came on here to ask about settling in London
My DD at v small university- part of university of London and course 80% girls - loves course but is so lonely. Chats to people in hall (80%
international she’s says - idk if this relevant) but it doesn’t go further. Sits with people for coffee after lectures but they seem to have formed solid friendship groups and ignore her. She went out with girls from course - has done a few times and says they just ignore her so she goes home after she’s had enough - I truly think she’s trying hard.
She finds London v stressful and lonely
I don’t know what to say when I meet her from train at lunchtime
I’ve read the thread and maybe volunteering and more university of London activities?
I feel sick tbh

Maybe it's good that it's being discussed. It's a bit of a case of "horses for courses" but maybe sixth formers aren't altogether realising how different student demographics can be?

Many Londoners know this about the good London unis and so do people who work in HE.

But perhaps the shy 17 year olds who most need a low-clique environment, don't know quite how globalised some institutions are.

But perhaps the shy 17 year olds who most need a low-clique environment, don't know quite how globalised some institutions are.

why would they? How can we change this?

I really don't get this, my DDs experience at unis in London and the north were really not that different (and the northern uni was a campus uni). Made good friends in halls in the first year, then shared with them and enjoyed similar social lives, the same student nights at clubs, plays galleries etc. The difference was that London obviously offered a lot more in terms of culture. It is of course luck of the draw whether you have flatmates you get on with but it is actually surprising how often you do. If not though there are so many other ways to make friends, sports, drama, music, ironing society , on your course. If a student is going to have problems mixing socially as OPs clearly has (though 3 weeks in is very early days) they are going to have them wherever they go.

I do think there is a particular problem for students settling in now in that Freshers is so frenetic and promises so much, and social media fills with images of people appearing to have a great time that there is no expectation any more that actually it is normal to be homesick, miss your friends, especially if romance is involved and to find it hard to make friends. Always was and still is.

As to blaming it on overseas students, well Imperial with 23.3% is a bit higher than most but there are few Russell group or equivalent unis that have less than 10% and most have around15% so the difference is not going to make much practical difference to uni life. For the truly xenophobic who fail to see the benefits of being part of a global community there is Liverpool Hope with hardly any........ www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/international-students-the-facts/by-university/

The op's description is very plausible for UCL, LSE or Imperial I think.

UCL have detailed admission statistics;
www.ucl.ac.uk/srs/statistics

Table J does show that some undergraduate courses have more 'overseas' students than 'home' students. It should also be noted that the percentage/number of 'home' students includes EU students as well - EU students are not counted as 'overseas' students.

Tables H,I,N,O and P are also relevant. Tables T and T2 show student ethnic groups.

Certainly, there is a poster on the Higher Education forum whose ds is studying at LSE. They appear to have no complaints about the university/course but she does mention that 'nobody spoke' during classes/tutorials for the first year. I think she also said that her ds's girlfriend lives abroad - they obviously speak to each other eventually!

I would suggest changing halls/corridors for 6 weeks if possible - even if it's just to be with 5 international boys as opposed to 5 girls.

The Complete University Guide's stats for UCL do not appear to be correct/do not include EU students?

It is of course luck of the draw whether you have flatmates you get on with but it is actually surprising how often you do.

And what I see is that students who learn to become more broad-minded about the kinds of people they "get on with" have a better time, and learn a lot more. I remember that as one of the really important things I learnt at university: that I needed to learn how to get along wit, and work with, people who were very different from me (I'd been brought up in a rather isolated place & a small community). And that was such a pleasure & a revelation. I became really interested in people, and different lives, even if I didn't deeply like people or want to live their lives. But it was all learning.

Unlike some rather privileged young people I had in a seminar once, who said "There are no black people in our village, so why do we have to learn about multiculturalism and post-colonialism?"

Clavinova I know a lot of students who went to UCL and none had the same experience as OP International students are spread between halls or concentrated in halls that cater specifically for overseas students eg International House or the expensive private halls. EU students in particular integrate completely, excellent English, few cultural issues. There is s bigger cultural divide with Chinese students but it is not unbridgeable if you make the effort. Some of those I students studied in those departments with a high proportion of overseas students, in STEM subjects, simply not an issue apart perhaps from the increased competition and raising of standards that comes with having some of the world’s brightest (and without wanting to reinforce stereotypes but in many cases most hard working).

she does mention that 'nobody spoke' during classes/tutorials for the first year.

This has very little to do with international students. UK students are very reluctant to talk during classes/tutorials. It is a huge contrast relevant to teaching in the US, for example.

In my subject (a humanity Masters) my course would have been immeasurably the poorer for not having overseas students to bring different perspectives and experiences. They also in many cases had a much greater depth of academic knowledge and experience. A high number of overseas students was actually crucial to just how enriching it was and I have heard the same from many humanities students. I can safely say that I never when it came to my subject had the slightest problem interacting with overseas students either as a result of language or culture, enthusiasm for the subject united us.

I might add that most of our lecturers were from overseas too, a vital contribution to the world leading standard of the course.....

User Yes that was my experience especially with those Uk students who had gone straight from school to university. It used to infuriate me that they were not taking that opportunity to learn how to make an effective contribution and work in teams whilst they could do so in a low risk supportive environment compared to when you enter the world of work. It was as though they had been taught to keep their ideas to themselves for fear they would be stolen, and enable someone else to do well..

Clavinova As I have said before the crucial difference and challenge socially at Imperial is the gender mix and high proportion of people who are super clever and totally absorbed in their subject area —geeks— I have actually met a few alumnae who are, literally, rocket scientists and their network is very tight (Brian May included), amazing people but I am sure they would not mind me saying, different.

at least a third were from selective grammars

So what? They’re state schools. Do you have to be surrounded by people from exactly the same kind of school in order to be ok?

There are loads of people who are in a minority at Oxbridge - ethnic minority students, overseas students who may never have been to the U.K. before, gay/transgender students, devoutly religious students etc.

Many students who’ve been stuck away at single sex boarding schools can be quite shy with the opposite sex and find socialising hard.

whatwouldrondo
The general tone of my post was meant to be positive but stats are stats. My own dc attend private schools not far from West London (prep plus selective senior school) - they have friends, classmates, neighbours, even aunts and uncles from all over the world - the environment at UCL etc. may not phase them at all.

I was an undergraduate at one of the London institutions mentioned here, some time ago (obviously).

Several students on my course dropped out in the first few weeks, as they realised they had picked the wrong course. Another issue for some was that they had grown up in small, rural communities and so had wanted the bright lights and excitement of London but, when they got here, found it rather overwhelming. I imagine that induction and support for new students is better these days, it certainly used to be rather "sink or swim". As far as I can tell, the London student demographic has always been slightly different and more diverse - more overseas students, more mature students and so on - and most people embraced that.

Clavinova This is a narrative that annoys me though, that somehow London universities, amongst them some of the best in the world, are only doable, socially, financially, whatever, for worldly private school pupils, are not for those from small town / poor / disadvantaged backgrounds. However I know from the experience of DDs flat mates, from disadvantaged single parent families from small (though admittedly diverse ) northern towns that it is not the case. They had a great experience, and it has opened up opportunities for them they would not have otherwise. It is not as though most will not have to make that transition to large diverse urban environment at some point anyway, increasingly I suspect overseas. That is exactly why all good universities are focused on giving students a global skill set.

OPs son has issues that I suspect would manifest themselves wherever he went, and you wonder if OPs attitudes are feeding that , but it does sound as if the course is a fit for him if not the social environment. I do think Imperial has an issue with the gender imbalance and culture, DD discounted it for that reason. I suspect they don't care either, they like their geeky cohort, they do not even do the areas of STEM where there is a greater representation of girls. That is a wider issue in Science anyway. However to paint the problem as one of London / universities with higher numbers of overseas students is misguided if not downright disingenuous, feeding of OPs clearly strong feelings..

I agree that it's about a transition that very many people will probably have to make sooner or later - and I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone coming from a small, quiet town is incapable of it - but what I witnessed was that some found it overwhelming. I suspect that they had not been well-prepared by their schools for the non-academic side of university life and, as I said, pastoral care at that time was not particularly good. Nor did we at that time get any general guidance on how to be a student. We were just expected to know and to get on with it.

'I imagine that induction and support for new students is better these days, it certainly used to be rather "sink or swim".'

It may be better, but I think in some ways it is harder as the 'freshers' week' legend has taken hold that you will have the time of your life, so you can start off feeling like a complete flop, without even lectures or work to distract you. Not a great start. Whereas I think in my day you had no expectations of freshers' week at all - there was a societies' fair, a couple of faculty 'get to meet you parties', and that was it. And it lasted about 3 days! These days freshers' week is great for the socially gregarious and adept students who will probably get on well wherever they go, perhaps less so for those who are shyer.

Abitoflight, yes volunteering and maybe there are some ULU clubs and societies your dd could join? And I think it is worth bearing in mind that some people just take longer to make friends than others. Sorry her course mates and others are not particularly welcoming - I think sometimes people find a group and are keen to hang on to that, so then aren't interested in any newcomers, or may even, sadly, actively resist them (no point in beating about the bush). Can she look out for any course members who are not part of 'the crowd' and try to befriend them? But in general yes join things that involve doing activities - and not necessarily just university groups either.

I'm sure you're right about freshers' week. As far as I can remember, it was a societies' fair and a few other (fairly tame) things that you could go to between or after lectures. Now (at least, it has been for a relative at university outside London) it's a week or even two of nothing but social events, some of them very expensive, and with a heavy focus on drinking.

I was thinking more about the general pastoral support - study skills, life skills, personal and academic tutors - which I gather is better these days, even if there are still gaps.

Maud At some of the London unis, not Imperial , the pastoral support is the stuff of a 70s commune complete with yoga and dream catchers and weed

"Alongside your academic life with your classes, assignments and related study, you will be juggling day to day life, including money and budgets, friends and relationships, perhaps part-time work or other commitments. Some of you will be adjusting to a city which is vast, fast and can appear impersonal. Others will have specific requirements that need specialist advice, for instance international students and disabled students.

Being a student can be stressful as well as challenging and rewarding. In order to study effectively, it is helpful if the rest of your life is running smoothly, that you feel involved in the course and student life and that you feel sufficiently confident to meet the demands the course makes.

We hope that if you find your life is not running as smoothly as you would like, whether or not this is directly affecting your studies, you will contact Student Advice and Wellbeing to see if we can help."

If only I had access to sessions on procrastination when I was 18 then my life might have been different, and I probably wouldn't be here for a start!

Imperial is a little more practical but clearly there is support....

it"'s a week or even two of nothing but social events, some of them very expensive, and with a heavy focus on drinking."

which is particularly surprising as apparently a higher proportion of 18-24s than previously are now non-drinkers!

I'm surprised that less alcoholic alternatives, and less cool things generally, haven't been developed for freshers week to tap into that - I know some places have ceilidhs, but you'd think there'd be scope for other slightly off beat fresher things - walks to explore the town, surrounding countryside, 'try a new sport' afternoons, many possibilities! Perhaps they have. (Or cut back freshers' weeks altogether - two weeks sounds horrendous!)

Still, it is good to hear that pastoral care has improved!

ok Yes, all those things to my certain knowledge at all the unis I have experience of .... There is a fantastic range on offer. The UCL Freshers fair is the biggest in the country with 300 stalls. If you cannot find activities / clubs that interest you from that....(plus they actually do start lectures in Freshers week)

However maybe that is part of the problem, too much available, too much excitement and no space to just be a bit sad at all the change....

Plus Mums that overreact when you do admit you are sad.......

Arf, Ron, at the 70s commune. These days, I can only judge by what I see in the various alumni publications and it does seem that pastoral support has a much higher profile than it did in my day. Even if it is rather hippy dippy in approach, they're right to highlight the fact that the vastness and fastness of London can be intimidating for some.

I agree too about the ideal range of activities for freshers' week. My relative is at university in a town which has a reputation for nightlife and freshers' week seems to play into that by (for example) hiring nightclubs for boozy parties.