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Further education

You'll find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further Education forum.

DS probably dropping out of uni. DH horrified.

259 replies

iliketosing · 28/10/2017 08:57

DS got into an excellent uni, top 3 in the world for his course, or something. Anyway, a degree from here would set him up for life career wise. Except that a degree from an excellent uni is no good to him if he is dead from throwing himself under a train - as I am trying to explain to my DH (sorry I've never posted on mumsnet and am not entirely sure of all the abbreviations.) It's a scandal no-one wants to talk about but one of the reasons he is unhappy is that he is on a corridor with 5 chinese girls who don't speak English and stick together like glue. 1/3 of his uni is Chinese, and most of them don't have the language skills to communicate in English. 1/3 are international - also v cliquey. And 1/3 are British kids who have been consummately unfriendly to say the least. He has always been very shy and possibly, because he is tall and beautiful, seems arrogant and aloof from afar. Inside he's a specky geek. He had a gap year and went off to an organised camp in terror because of his shyness; to his joy and amazement he made friends easily and quickly with about 10 others in the group, all from up North in the UK, and actually fell for a girl from Newcastle. So now he wants to leave the amazing rep Russel group uni (in the South...) and start again next year - at Leeds/Newcastle/up North. I think that if he has made every effort to acclimatise and is still miserable by Xmas then he should leave, incurring less debt than if he stayed the year and then left. And he really is trying - he's exercising regularly, seeing a counsellor, is moving to different accomodation, has joined all kinds of groups. But remains isolated and lonely. I don't know if he should try an antidepressant, I feel sad about thinking this and that perhaps I am medicalising understandable unhappiness. My DH thinks he should stay and be miserable as he is likely to cheer up eventually and will regret forever such an impulsive and crazy move. I wonder if anyone else has been a parent in this situation? I don't feel too upset about it as I started anti-depressants a month ago!! (because of how awful I felt for him.) I feel pretty tefloned now. I wish my DS was too.

OP posts:
fridgepants · 28/10/2017 15:42

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

whatwouldrondo · 28/10/2017 16:14

OP If there is a university admitting students who have not passed the standard language tests which are designed to ensure the students' English is of the required standard to be able to participate fully in an undergraduate degree course as determined by careful consultation and standard setting (now endorsed by the courts too) then I suggest that never mind tipping off a journalist, you inform the Home Office. They will have also failed in their own processes which require the approved test to have been passed for a student visa to be allowed (which given the Home Offices current obsession with excluding people from the country however economically self harming and inhumane is about as likely as the Pope turning up in your bathroom).

Dottysheep10 · 28/10/2017 16:15

Hi OP. I’m pretty certain I know which university you’re talking about. I went to a different university (Cambridge) ten years ago, had a great education and opportunities (fabulous balls, internship opportunities etc) but was thoroughly MISERABLE from a social point of view and constantly wondered if I should quit and go to a good but more ‘normal’ university like my school friends (Leeds, Sheffield, York, Bristol, Birmingham etc). I’m from London, comprehensive school background, always found it very easy to make friends and ‘normal’ (or so I think, anyway!) My peers were pretty much all public school/top private school educated, wealthy, arrogant, narrow minded and cliquey. People can be surprisingly ‘tribal’ at university and when yours seems to be the only face that doesn’t fit it is miserable. I’m very open minded and I knew many of my fellow students would be rich but (perhaps naively) thought we would have enough in common to be friends! I eventually managed to make friends with a group of them but haven’t seen ANY of them since graduating (with the exception of one nice, ‘normal’ Northener and my Northern boyfriend), despite working in the same City and career as many of them! Facebook informs me that they continue to go on holiday together (e.g at villas in Lake Como, Marbella etc owned by their parents) and socialise at the most expensive bars etc. I think this is because (they felt) we simply didnt have much in common and they never grew outside their ‘public school’ mindset.

It’s a huge shame that I wasn’t able to make strong friendships at uni. I am still close to school friends and have friendships with some colleagues, however, university friends are often the friendships that carry people through the difficult transition from graduating to finding your feet as an adult - people who can go through all the life changes, challenges and milestones: birthdays, travelling, new jobs, breakups, change of career direction, engagements, weddings and babies. Most of my friends have met their significant others at uni or through uni friends.

Those 3/4 years at uni are vital for setting out the groundwork for your DS’s twenties and beyond. Being a young adult today is already difficult enough and requires resilience and strong mental health. Yes he should get a good education, but he should also be HAPPY and make good friends, interesting social networks and wonderful memories that will carry him through his adult life.

Several of my colleagues (corporate law) attended the excellent unis mentioned above. So he may well not be ‘giving up’ very much at all.

user918273645 · 28/10/2017 16:21

What I don’t accept is that Chinese born and raised students of the Caibre that imperial requires don’t speak English to the extent that they depend on English students to do their work for them. It may be true of certain universities that are struggling for numbers.

It is not true of UK universities as a whole, because licenses for tier 4 visas require rigorous language tests. As a pp wrote, it is not sufficient for universities to sign off students coming; visa conditions require independent language tests.

Perhaps the uni that I worked at is different, although Russel group, but I can tell you this - the chinese students could not speak English to save their lives.

When the OP writes comments like this, it is very hard to believe the details in the rest of the posts. It is simply not the case that Chinese students cannot communicate in English at Russell group universities.

Dapplegrey2 · 28/10/2017 16:21

Whatwouldrondo - if a Chinese parent posted on mumsnet saying their dc was the only Asian among 5 British students on his corridor and he was feeling excluded because they didn't speak to him, would you accuse that parent of racism?

IfYouGoDownToTheWoodsToday · 28/10/2017 16:26

Broken
“OP claimed that two thirds of the students at her DC's Russell Group university are from overseas. I do not believe this to be true. Even at the most diverse institutions, the numbers are much smaller.“

That is absolute rubbish.

KimchiLaLa · 28/10/2017 16:27

Is it LSE?

Can he move out of his halls and find alternative accommodation?

I would also join as many clubs etc as I can. Will help make other friends.

LadyinCement · 28/10/2017 16:30

dn and some others at RG university made formal complaint about the language skills of some of the students on Law course. This wasn't just "snitching", it was because dn said she was required to do a project of some sort with two students and it became very apparent that not only did they not speak English (anyone can be very shy or unconfident when speaking) they couldn't write at all either.

I suppose universities can't get rid of high-paying students because it is a) bad publicity that they admitted them in the first place and b)would discourage others from applying there and the last thing they want is to cut off an oil well in full flow.

MoreCheerfulMonica · 28/10/2017 16:31

I find it hard to believe that students can fulfil Imperial's English language proficiency requirements yet not be able to participate in a seminar.

Of course he should move if his mental health is at risk and moving really is the best solution, but chucking it in after three or four weeks of term does seem hasty - is he even in his new accommodation yet? As I asked before, is he sure his girlfriend wants the reunion on which he's pinning so many hopes? Perhaps she'd prefer a long distance relationship while she concentrates on her course.

user918273645 · 28/10/2017 16:31

When a poster has factual errors in their posts, it is hard to take all the details seriously.

Click here for a breakdown of Imperial students by nationality:

www.imperial.ac.uk/admin-services/strategic-planning/statistics/trend-analysis/student-nationality/

It is true that 2/3 of imperial students are non-British - but this includes postgraduate students, who are not usually in halls. Postgraduate students represent 30% or so of Imperial's students. So at undergraduate level much more than 1/3 of students are British.

Across all students, 17% (not 33%) are Chinese.

For those who think this analysis is heartless towards OP's son: without understanding what the problems really are you can't solve them. It is quite unlikely that he is the only British student within the accommodation block, so part of the issue is difficulties in meeting and making friends with others. This won't necessarily trivially solve itself in another university - although certainly another environment might well work better for him. London universities are very different from universities in smaller cities.

user918273645 · 28/10/2017 16:32

BTW a much higher fraction of postgraduate students are international at all universities.

user918273645 · 28/10/2017 16:35

I suppose universities can't get rid of high-paying students because it is a) bad publicity that they admitted them in the first place and b)would discourage others from applying there and the last thing they want is to cut off an oil well in full flow.

Universities fail students who do not meet academic expectations, regardless of their country of origin and fee status. It is absolutely ludicrous to claim otherwise.

It is far worse in the medium term for a university to allow an unqualified student to graduate than to fail them.

TheFallenMadonna · 28/10/2017 16:36

I went to Imperial and loved it. The make up of the student body has changed a lot in the last 20 odd years. 2/3 of all students are indeed from overseas (although that includes postgrads).

LadyinCement · 28/10/2017 16:36

I haven't read the full link, MoreCheerfulMonica, but who is to know who has sat the test? I mean, if I was sent a form asking about my proficiency in another language, I could pay someone to fill it in or take a test. If my parents had the dosh for a place at a UK university, they surely could fork out a few £££ to get around this.

Someone I know was teaching the Chinese students English at local RG university. This implies that teaching is thought necessary!

TatianaLarina · 28/10/2017 16:39

Dottysheep

State intake to Cambridge is 62%, even if it were 20 years ago it would have been 50% so it’s simply not true that most of your peers were public/private school and wealthy.

Bluntness100 · 28/10/2017 16:41

This thread seems to focus heavily on Chinese students and some of the ops language is bordering on offensive, when I’d have thought she would focus more heavily on the son in question.

Anyways, International student stats by uni link below. If this kid is at imperial then it’s 23 percent, which is pretty much the highest in the uk and still puts 77 percent British.

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/international-students-the-facts/by-university/

TheFallenMadonna · 28/10/2017 16:42

It wasn't uncommon even back then for people to switch to other universities, for my contemporaries because, well, the social mix was limited. Nerdy or excessively hearty mostly. As I said, I loved it. But it wasn't a typical experience I think.

HouseholdWords · 28/10/2017 17:08

Hmmmm. First of all OP you may have got a different set of responses if you'd posted in the Higher Education section - "Further Education" tends to be FE Colleges etc. There are some very expert academics posting in the HE section who may not have seen this pthread.

But anyway ...

Your opening post is quite a jumble of lots of stuff. It feels as though you're absorbing your DS's panic & upset, and replaying it in your own reactions.

My first thought is that maybe your DS is not ready for university.

My second thought is that you (or him?) don't say anything much about how he's enjoying (or not) his actual course.

There's a lot of projection of his own shyness onto others. It's verging on a kind of xenophobia to attribute part of his problem to overseas students. They are obviously hugely clever to get to the place your DS is at (either Imperial or LSE from your 1st post?) in another language and totally different culture. I'd say their "cliqueyness" is shyness and anxiety not to offend.

If it's your DS's shyness which is making him suicidal, then he really really needs to seek help. CBT or some other coping therapy is necessary. I remember being paralysingly shy when I started university - I was 18 months younger than most, and had rarely caught a bus before I moved from rural isolation to a big city university.

But I got over it. I womanned up - I grew up, and I found ways of learning how to deal with my shyness. As a young woman at university 30 years ago, I also had to learn to really speak up - I didn't have any privilege of masculinity (or height or good looks) as your DS has.

What are his interests? Can he join a club or society - again, it'll be hard at first, but he'll meet a couple of people like him.

But the bottom line really is - wherever he goes, he takes himself with him. A move to Newcastle (excellent city, excellent university) won't suddenly cure his shyness. And what if his girlfriend dumps him?

Can he get involved in other aspects of his hall of residence? There's usually a Dean of students & sub-deans resident in London halls (especially LSE ones) - they'll have seen it all before. He could talk to one of these senior residents confidentially. They might be able to introduce him to other students. In my experience of years of freshers, they very rarely only socialise with their flat, kitchen or corridor. There will have been lots of stuff put on in Freshers Week for just this purpose - to get people mixing.

I'm afraid I think your son is projecting his own fears, anxieties and fear of failure onto other things. BUt if he's been brought up with such an all-or-nothing view: top 3 in the world for his course, or something. Anyway, a degree from here would set him up for life career wise from you and/or his father, then no wonder he's so anxious.

Maybe he needs to take another year out from university - he really needs to find a way to overcome his pathological shyness.

I'm trying to be helpful here, although you'll probably read my whole post as harsh and nasty as you have reprimanded deckoff - whose advice is tough but sensible. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but there are some nasty goady things in your first post about other students, and then we get this in a subsequent post about Chinese students:
They go home with an English degree which is very prestigious, the English uni gets pots of money. It is a scandal and will eventually be exposed by a budding journalist one day.

You're upset for your son, but this is just goady racism, and both you & he are using it as an excuse for his unhappiness from the sounds of it. I've taught a lot of Chinese students over the years - and I am in awe of them. They cope not just in a language but a whole bloody alphabet that is very very different from their own native languages (most Chinese students speak at least 2 usually 3 languages before English); they are undertaking an expensive education in a culture and educational culture also totally different from their own. The Chinese students I teach are extremely bright, very motivated, and work insanely hard - and are quite a lot of fun, once you can get into a bit of sympathy with them - but they are deferential and shy because they are afraid of losing face, saying the wrong thing, or offending. I love teaching them - and I hope they go back to China with just a little bit of an understanding of the chaos and creativity of the West - and value it.

And the huge fees they pay are subsidising your DS, don't forget.

I think you need to stop projecting onto your son, and enabling his shyness.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 28/10/2017 17:08

Imperial don’t have catered halls. LSE is the only other university in the UK that has a similar student profile.

The issue of Chinese students not integrating is well understood by universities and a number of strategies have been tried to improve this, although I am not aware of any that have been hugely successful. There are a couple of problems that contribute to this. Firstly IELTS 6.5 min 6 which is what Imperial requires for most UG degrees is not super high. It’s good enough to do a maths degree but it’s not full fluency. Secondly, Chinese students tend to score very well in reading and writing and less well in speaking and listening. This means they achieve the average score needed but not the overall. Thirdly thirdly have often been taught by non native English speakers and struggle to understand accented English in normal speech. They are also often shy and uncomfortable at speaking in case they say things wrong and that combined with other cultural differences does make it very difficult for many.

You of course see clustering of other nationalities- it is exhausting to speak in your second language all the time. But other countries often don’t have the critical mass to allow this. Or students are from places like Singapore or hong king where they are essentially bilingual.

Students need to pass a visa interview in English before they come as well which should weed people out.

I suspect there are a small number of people who pay for fake English language credentials (tricky to forge) or for ringers to take tests (this was happening with TOEFL a while ago) but it’s rare. I genuinely think most of the students are at the required standard when they arrive. I think some students actually lose English skills through lack of practice after arrival though.

None of this means that these students are not entitled to study at these universities. But I do think that the unis have a responsibility to help them integrate better.

Back to the OPs son. The one thing I will say is that it is very very common for students to have a blip at about this time of year. After the excitement of the first few weeks has worn off and when real life starts to settle in. It is often combined with freshers flu and the darker, colder nights. It is a recognised phenomenon- there is even a graph! www.google.co.uk/search?q=culture+shock+cycle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgdii=nlZml_Hi-Nfw9M:&imgrc=7aB54Dj0xCRpkM:

I would try and get him to stick it out until Christmas. it’s still only a few weeks into term and hopefully he will find his tribe. The accommodation move should help and if it doesn’t he could reassess at that point.

DistanceCall · 28/10/2017 17:11

He's considering changing university because no one on his corridor speaks English to him? Seriously?

University is not school. He's a grownup. He can make friends elsewhere.

LemonysSnicket · 28/10/2017 17:24

It wouldn’t set him up for life career wise - I have a BA and MA from a Top 5 uni , without experience I am unemployable and overqualified.

LemonysSnicket · 28/10/2017 17:26

He should go to a less pushy uni- top 10 would work if less an aim for the internationals , if he’s smart, attractive and tall he would fit in well at Lancaster. He’d be popular in a snap !

Brokenbiscuit · 28/10/2017 18:03

The new intake stats for Imperial that people have linked to don't actually represent the make-up of the population as a whole. They are stats for the new intake, including both undergraduate and postgraduate. The international student intake will be heavily weighed towards the postgraduate side, and a large number of those students will on one-year Master's programmes. The majority of British students, on the other hand, will be doing undergraduate programmes of at least three years in duration. Hence the overall number of British students as a proportion of the total student body will be significantly higher than the new intake statistics suggest.

whatwouldrondo · 28/10/2017 18:16

Dapplegrey (yawn - from previous encounters) If a Chinese mother came on the thread said her child was excluded by 5 British students and came out with a similar diatribe of hyperbole denigrating British students, including accusations that I know for a fact to be untrue then yes I would accuse her of racism. It would not be unlikely either as Chinese culture has its own ingrained issues of xenophobia, see Frank Dikotter's The Discourse of Race in Modern China. Surprise, surprise xenophobia is not a British or even western phenomenon. Your "other" may see you as an "other" too.

However as pp has pointed out whilst integration is problematic there are things that a student can do. Both my DDs shared with Chinese students in first year. In one case, a London university, though all British they had diverse backgrounds and there was no issue. They included him in a "Come Dine with me" evening" where they all had chance to show that their diverse backgrounds could be a positive and that broke down the barriers. My other daughter in the North was sharing with other British students who all came from towns in South / Eastern England with little immigration where they had had little experience of other cultures and they had no clue how to include the Chinese student and assumed he stayed in his room because he wanted to. My DD having lived in China made an effort to include him, the rest were more than glad to include him once the ice was broken and he remained part of their flatshares when they moved out as well.

Ladyincement So you are a cheat, but then cheating is not confined to one culture is it? Which is why there are processes in place to stop it..... A others have said it is in nobody's interests to admit students who will fail

shhhfastasleep · 28/10/2017 18:21

We have Russell Group unis up North, you know. Haven’t read full thread but if changing is possible he should do it.
Or grit his teeth and expand his circle where he is.
Or, as my SIL did, drop out. But she has stuck at her accountancy qualifications and , despite having no degree, has just qualified as an accountant - she went on a bank training programme. She’s a fantastic example of doing brilliantly outside uni. And she’s a lovely, rounded, funny, kind, interesting person (as well as a geek).

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