DS probably dropping out of uni. DH horrified.

[iliketosing]

DS got into an excellent uni, top 3 in the world for his course, or something. Anyway, a degree from here would set him up for life career wise. Except that a degree from an excellent uni is no good to him if he is dead from throwing himself under a train - as I am trying to explain to my DH (sorry I've never posted on mumsnet and am not entirely sure of all the abbreviations.) It's a scandal no-one wants to talk about but one of the reasons he is unhappy is that he is on a corridor with 5 chinese girls who don't speak English and stick together like glue. 1/3 of his uni is Chinese, and most of them don't have the language skills to communicate in English. 1/3 are international - also v cliquey. And 1/3 are British kids who have been consummately unfriendly to say the least. He has always been very shy and possibly, because he is tall and beautiful, seems arrogant and aloof from afar. Inside he's a specky geek. He had a gap year and went off to an organised camp in terror because of his shyness; to his joy and amazement he made friends easily and quickly with about 10 others in the group, all from up North in the UK, and actually fell for a girl from Newcastle. So now he wants to leave the amazing rep Russel group uni (in the South...) and start again next year - at Leeds/Newcastle/up North. I think that if he has made every effort to acclimatise and is still miserable by Xmas then he should leave, incurring less debt than if he stayed the year and then left. And he really is trying - he's exercising regularly, seeing a counsellor, is moving to different accomodation, has joined all kinds of groups. But remains isolated and lonely. I don't know if he should try an antidepressant, I feel sad about thinking this and that perhaps I am medicalising understandable unhappiness. My DH thinks he should stay and be miserable as he is likely to cheer up eventually and will regret forever such an impulsive and crazy move. I wonder if anyone else has been a parent in this situation? I don't feel too upset about it as I started anti-depressants a month ago!! (because of how awful I felt for him.) I feel pretty tefloned now. I wish my DS was too.

Have only read your posts OP.

My dd has social anxiety (I see you think that your son may have this). She sees a counsellor and is up and down - I manage her mental health quite carefully (its become a way of life for me - I don't even realise I am doing it) She is younger - Y11. When it comes to university she can apply for wherever she wants, but if she was reporting this kind of scenario back to me I would be very worried.

I would tell her - if its unbearable and making you unhappy then it isn't worth it. There are other options - i.e. you can come home and either apply for OU next year or apply to
our local university next year and live at home.....however if you want to stick it out a little longer to see what happens you have my full support. Equally if you feel you can't bear it another moment then come straight home.

I find that empowering them helps. My dd in that situation might well decide to stick it out a little longer because she would be confident that she calls the shots and there are no consequences or censure if she does decide to bail.

hmc good point, it is vital I think to have 'dropping out' (not an ideal term!) as an ok choice to make rather than a dramatic catastrophe.

Also worth noting that it's not that uncommon to realise you've made a mistake - anecdotally I hear of more people changing university than in days long gone by (changing course used to be quite common, place much less so).

rondo, good to hear that there are lots of non party freshers activities - and lectures, even better!

HouseholdWords I am not degree educated as you can probably tell by your supercilious attitude. I can however understand and get by in a couple of European languages. I will say that if the Chinese students are anything like the Vietnamese nail bars or Chinese restaurants I frequent then I am not surprised the OP’s son is having difficulty conversing with or being accepted into their group. Make of this whatever you want. I will also add I have yet to see one of these businesses employing and English person.

What I make of that is that you don’t know much about China let alone Chinese students, or indeed Vietnam which is an entirely different country with a different history and to quite a large extent culture and society but let’s not let the diversity of a region that accounts for a fair proportion of the world’s population get in the way of a good anglocentric stereotype.

FWIW the average Chinese student will be from a wealthy family and may well have been to an International School, even a British International School like those run by Harrow School etc. Or they may have gone to a British boarding School, China is their biggest overseas market, Wycombe Abbey and Winchester are the most aspired to by the Chinese professional and economic elite. You are more likely to meet people like them at a trade negotiation or working in a multinational, which is exactly why Chinese parents fork out for a western education so their children will be able to operate between cultures.

I will say that if the Chinese students are anything like the Vietnamese nail bars or Chinese restaurants I frequent then I am not surprised the OP’s son is having difficulty conversing with or being accepted into their group. Make of this whatever you want. I will also add I have yet to see one of these businesses employing and English person.

Then you know very little about the current state of tertiary education and the reliance of tertiary institutions on foreign students for their income (as well as many secondary private schools who also rely on foreign students' money).

The vast majority of foreign Chinese students in this country are from very wealthy families - no need to spend time also doing a minimum wage job whilst studying for their degree

I'm sure if you could knock up a decent chow mein or sweet and sour chicken, then a Chinese restaurant might employ you - regardless of whether you had Chinese language skills, amongst your many European languages. Plenty of family-owned take aways in this country are heading for closure as the second generation kids do not want to take over the family business.

Chester I made no assumptions about your education - and ou say that you get by in a few languages, so I assume you'd understand that state of learning a language where you can understand most of what people say to you, and you can read (slowly, with a dictionary) but don't have the confidence or speed to speak as well as you would like. My language teaching colleagues call this "Passive comprehension."

I will say that if the Chinese students are anything like the Vietnamese nail bars or Chinese restaurants I frequent then I am not surprised the OP’s son is having difficulty conversing with or being accepted into their group. Make of this whatever you want. I will also add I have yet to see one of these businesses employing and English person.

Well, what I make of this is that you are a common or garden xenophobe.

Then you know very little about the current state of tertiary education and the reliance of tertiary institutions on foreign students for their income

Overseas students pay a fee much nearer the real cost of a UK undergraduate degree. They subsidise UK students.

But much more importantly - they bring a much needed, refreshing, and challenging global perspective to the UK. And we might hope that they leave the UK with some affection and good memories of their time here. We hope they make lasting friends and relationships - all this helps us survive as a country.

And I am very very proud to be part of the UK education system which is so desired across the world, and seen as one of the best countries in which to pursue higher studies. The UK has developed quality in HE far beyond our population would suggest - we have 5 of the top 10 universities in the world in the UK.

And the contribution of international students and staff is an important part of that.

Household And we might hope that they leave the UK with some affection and good memories of their time here. We hope they make lasting friends and relationships - all this helps us survive as a country.

Exactly but it does not help when vans border agency vans turn up to International house in Regents Park and herd students from some of our most prestigious unis including Imperial, there for a cinema night into vans and deportation or worse to detention centres if they sat a particular language test, basically trying it on to target a soft target for immigration control. Those students were vindicated in court and the HOs action declared illegal but if I were a clever student with a choice of US and Australian etc unis Ibwould think twice and the number of overseas applicants have gone down, by 50% from India. That will please the xenophobes I suppose but definitely won't help this supposedly global Britain to earn a living..,..

Plenty of businesses are heading for closure in this country regardless of whether they are second generation immigrant businesses. Also xenophobia obviously cuts both ways but it is ok for other cultures not to be inclusive as long as their children are attending RG universities. Please don’t make assumptions about me you do not know me. Funny how the liberal elite forget human rights in the rest of the world when they are getting a living from them.

I know. It's embarrassing isn't it? We seem to have a PM who as Home Secretary had a real bee in her bonnet about "foreign" (hate that word) students. I've always suspected her of that kind of quiet middle England racism. Almost nastier than the EDF because it appears to be so polite.

Are you really proud of our education system HouseholdWords? I'm not. It fails so many young people especially BAMA students and those outside the SE. It's OK I suppose if you are white, middle-class living in Hertfordshire etc. but if you don't fall into that category it's pretty fucking shit to be honest.

Ask these wealthy children who attend what their parent pay their employees before you lecture me on how marvellous and wealthy they are.

Whatwouldrondo you are assuming I have never attended trade negotiations or worked for a multi-national company where I would be likely to meet the parents of wealthy students. There you go with the assumptions again. I have done both. Admittedly when it was a lot easier for young people in this country. But knock yourself out.

*Whatwouldrondo you are assuming I have never attended trade negotiations or worked for a multi-national company where I would be likely to meet the parents of wealthy students. There you go with the assumptions again. I have done both. Admittedly when it was a lot easier for young people in this country. But knock yourself out." Then you would know what I was talking about..........

I will apologise. I have a family member who went through a similar situation as the Op’s son at one of the most prestigious universities. She had a breakdown. There was very little support and she left almost immediately never to return. I get frustrated that there seems to be little care for students who find themselves struggling and not included in university life for whatever reason. Are our expectations of our children different. Maybe you are right when you say wealthy foreign students will not be looking to work while they are studying. Wealth does cushion life. My relative comes from a very comfortable background but is not mega-wealthy. Do expectations differ between cultures. As I have said there was no help for student or family 10 years ago. Perhaps it is different today.

Nephew ‘bummed out’ now has own business instead of a degree chill

Oklookingahead we have talked today about looking in the wider UoL community for societies which may attract more like minded people and she’s going to keep at it and that it does take time to settle in London. She will keep plugging away and do some things differentlly

Thinking a bit more about general issue of shyer, 'non party' students starting at university.

On mn i occasionally see references to the fact that it is more common now to have groups of 1st yrs who already know each other from their school and home social life, going to the same university and then 'sticking together'. So that it's now less a case that everyone knows hardly anyone when they arrive - and it can be harder for someone on their own to break in.

(Obviously I realise there have always been a few of these groups, but I do remember repeatedly being told 'nobody else will know anyone either'. No longer true?)

I haven't heard of this being an issue in rl for anyone I know - but is it a phenomenon? And if so, any particular universities to avoid for that? As always, the socially alpha will overcome it, but the less sos will find it harder.

I get frustrated that there seems to be little care for students who find themselves struggling and not included in university life for whatever reason

But nowadays (and for at least the last 20 years, in my experience) there is help. There are student counselling services, Senior Residents/Deans/Sub-deans in Halls of Residence, Personal Tutors, Welfare Tutors within Departments, and Welfare officers within Student Unions or Guilds.

My university spends money it increasingly doesn't have to deal with a breakdown in resilience in our undergraduates, We have to mop up the results of 14 years of over-examined, anxiety-ridden, instrumentalist education.

I have the experience, over many years, of mixed responses to advising students to seek help. Some stoutly deny they have a problem, while breaking down in tears in my office. The tears often shift them into thinking about seeking help. Some seek appropriate help and manage. Others deny they have a problem at all. They're the ones I worry about the most.

Abit University of London have inter varsity halls which take students from different universities which might give your DD wider social options than her institution. From experience I could not speak more highly of ULUs housing and other support services, very professional with a deep store of knowledge and experience. They were truly amazing in helping us with a problem, worth approaching them. They take very seriously their aim to help students with the challenges of being a student in London in order to ensure it is not an experience that puts students off coming to London universities.

I suppose it's quite 'stigmatising' to look for help if your problem is that you haven't made friends - that's one problem with using the support services. It's very good to know that they're there though.

Another problem that occurs to me is that if you haven't had the greatest time socially at school you may have been banking on university as the place where it will all be different and you will 'meet your kind and make friends for life' etc and so on. And that makes it all the more disappointing when you get there and discover the same issues can arise - cliques, cold shouldering etc - these happen everywhere. Whereas those who have sailed through school socially may then do the same at university.

So lowered expectations are a good idea I think - and, very importantly, a real love of the course that you're going to do.

Whatwouldrondo
Thank you.** I am trying to aim her at university services - as I’ve said to her, they are there to help specifically because these type of problems occur and will have a ‘take’ on the situation superior to my own

Interesting about the rich foreign students.

Was chatting to a dn (different one from one at Bristol!) who attends another RG university. There was some argy bargy when first starting as the Chinese students didn't get that they had to wash up/clean up a bit after cooking. There was a summit and the Chinese students said they all had staff at home and would never do a domestic chore. In fact they asked the girls in the hall if they would do the washing up etc! So if they learnt nothing else at university they found that a) however rich you are it's not going to get you out of cleaning up and b) you're not going to get far asking female peers to do it.

Casual racism, lovely.

Of course the international students are going to stick to the people they feel familiar with, for the vast majority of them this is their first time in an environment they are not used to.

And "don't speak English" - they got accepted into a British university, of course they speak fucking English.