DS probably dropping out of uni. DH horrified.

[iliketosing]

DS got into an excellent uni, top 3 in the world for his course, or something. Anyway, a degree from here would set him up for life career wise. Except that a degree from an excellent uni is no good to him if he is dead from throwing himself under a train - as I am trying to explain to my DH (sorry I've never posted on mumsnet and am not entirely sure of all the abbreviations.) It's a scandal no-one wants to talk about but one of the reasons he is unhappy is that he is on a corridor with 5 chinese girls who don't speak English and stick together like glue. 1/3 of his uni is Chinese, and most of them don't have the language skills to communicate in English. 1/3 are international - also v cliquey. And 1/3 are British kids who have been consummately unfriendly to say the least. He has always been very shy and possibly, because he is tall and beautiful, seems arrogant and aloof from afar. Inside he's a specky geek. He had a gap year and went off to an organised camp in terror because of his shyness; to his joy and amazement he made friends easily and quickly with about 10 others in the group, all from up North in the UK, and actually fell for a girl from Newcastle. So now he wants to leave the amazing rep Russel group uni (in the South...) and start again next year - at Leeds/Newcastle/up North. I think that if he has made every effort to acclimatise and is still miserable by Xmas then he should leave, incurring less debt than if he stayed the year and then left. And he really is trying - he's exercising regularly, seeing a counsellor, is moving to different accomodation, has joined all kinds of groups. But remains isolated and lonely. I don't know if he should try an antidepressant, I feel sad about thinking this and that perhaps I am medicalising understandable unhappiness. My DH thinks he should stay and be miserable as he is likely to cheer up eventually and will regret forever such an impulsive and crazy move. I wonder if anyone else has been a parent in this situation? I don't feel too upset about it as I started anti-depressants a month ago!! (because of how awful I felt for him.) I feel pretty tefloned now. I wish my DS was too.

All of you saying disgracefully xenophobic things about Chinese students: when working in a second (or probably 3rd or 4th language), one's comprehension is often far better than ones speaking and/or writing ability. But these improve vastly.

As for students making complaints about other students, because of their ethnicity!

I despair - just how are these British students going to cope in a globalising work place?

I have always wondered this. If the students on a course don’t speak English how do they access the course and lectures. How do they write their dissertations. Genuinely don’t understand.

I do feel sorry for OP's ds, because moving is a big decision. I think a lot of people take their loneliness with them everywhere, and for others it's just plain bad luck and they would thrive anywhere else. It's difficult to know if it would be out of the frying pan and into the fire. Campus universities do offer more in the way of social opportunities, but how horrendous if a student moved to one and found that that place too wasn't all it was cracked up to be?

I honestly think all this "off to uni" business has got a bit out of hand and the expectations that come with it are leading people to feel at best short-changed and at worst very depressed if they don't find this huge group of bosom friends within five minutes.

Chestervase it's fairly simple - in the process of learning to use another language at a very high & specialised level, often reading, writing, speaking, and comprehension improve at different rates.

I'm sure you had this experience when you learnt another language?

I do not understand why posters are painting Northern universities as somehow intrinsically different and more nurturing / exciting than those elsewhere in the country. I am a northerner, and proud of the identity / culture that attaches to me but when my DD decided on a northern university I didn't think oh great, she is returning to God's own country where she will encounter only warm friendly down to earth people who will welcome her to their bosoms for all her quirks. Of course northern universities have their fair share of excluding cliques coming from all over the country, and their social life is no different (literally the same brands like vodka revs, even Yates has gone south now). It sounds like OP son is in danger of being encouraged to think it is the answer.

Imperial does have an issue with the gender mix and geek count but since the nearby music and drama schools have a similar issue with the reverse gender mix and arty farty count they do tend to find each other if they are looking and it can even out.

No, HouseholdWords, no one is saying disgraceful things about Chinese students per se , they are questioning the language ability of some and, in the case of the OP, worrying about her ds to whom the students don't seem to be welcoming. Leaving someone out is mean, whatever country you come from. Admitting students with sub-standard language skills is the fault of the institution.

HouseholdWords It's OK, not to worry about gobalisation, because Brexit.

We are assuming that the other students in this boy's corridor are leaving him out, or are deliberately excluding him. But we have this only at third-hand - the OP telling us, what her DS tells her. I can't help wondering if the DS is projecting his own insecurities onto those he encounters. Unless they've said "Go away. You can't join our group" or something equally childish, we have the DS's impression that he is unwelcome.

Unfortunately (and I know this from my own experience of shyness and overcoming it), it's generally the shyness of someone like the OP's DS, almost expecting to be excluded.

And as WhatwouldRonDo says, a big Northern university is not necessarily the answer.

The answer is for the DS to overcome his shyness, and examine his (likely inherited from the OP) prejudices and assumptions.

OuiasMaisBon

Household he is actually a man, not a boy.

Which is actually important to bear in mind in these "parent of a fresher" situations, IME.

Household Exactly my thoughts. Universities now are actually actively trying to develop global skills in their students, even Northern ones! At York every student has to learn a language, orientated to the course, in their first year, Leeds has it global community initiative, in spite of being Northern. Overseas students are seen as positively contributing to this aim. If students come influenced by attitudes like Ops what chance do they stand.......

Chestervase as discussed they do have the level of English needed to complete their courses. When you think that Chinese students grow up with a language that is written as pictograms and in which context not tense is the (actually very economic) driver in terms of time, but the meaning of words change completely according to the tones used (the word for nine, dog, and penis is the same in Cantonese, use the wrong one of nine tones and it can get sticky) with all the implications for memory skills and brain development and add in an education system that wants model answers rather than critical thinking and you will see that alongside learning the language Chinese students have to make huge changes to the way they think and study to do well, but they do do well, that is exactly why there are so many at universities like Imperial and LSE who can and do select the brightest and best from the rest of the world. LSE for instance has the highest number of applications for a course (Economics) in the whole country.

Ladyincement Yes they are saying disgraceful things about Chinese students perse. OP opened up with an ignorant and untrue diatribe which others have been happy to pitch in to. Nobody has provided any evidence that Imperial are admitting vast numbers of Chinese Students who "do not have the language skills to communicate in English" They have all sat a test, Imperial can be very selective in who it takes and would have no possible motivation to admit students who could not take a full part and meet the demands of academic life. My DD certainly never had experience of Chinese students not able to speak English on her Science course at a nearby London University. With no basis in fact OP is being disgraceful in the prejudice she is showing to these students.

Listen to your instinct about your son OP & not your DH. Also make sure you facilitate the right help for any MH issues, push for it/pay for it if you can. I have a friend who did neither for various reasons (& for whom people were also trotting out 'you're being over dramatic'/he's an adult etc). It wasn't her fault, she wasn't to know how it would end but I wouldn't want anyone else to go through what she did.

I'm saying this as we've all heard the stats about the highest risk group for suicide & you mention it in your OP. Maybe try taking him for a weekend away & see if he'll open up to you about how he really feels? My DH is also of the 'get a grip' school of empathy, I would override his input if I thought my son was feeling that low. I hope it works out ok OP

'I honestly think all this "off to uni" business has got a bit out of hand and the expectations that come with it are leading people to feel at best short-changed and at worst very depressed if they don't find this huge group of bosom friends within five minutes.'

I think that has always been a bit of an expectation tbh - and it has always been dashed in quite a few cases. I agree with you that it isn't a good thing. It makes the first few weeks at university nerveracking - because if you see the whole point of going to university as being to make new friends and then you don't straight away, that is very disappointing. Whereas you don't start a job expecting that, and friendships develop much more naturally.

I must say various recent threads on mn have made me rather more sceptical about the joys of university for the non party/ non-socially alpha types. Particularly if you don't have a major sporting or musical interest that you can make friends through. It may just be that it takes longer to make friends I suppose - but you're up against the huge 'have a whale of a time straight away' pressure.

Agree, some veiled racism here. Which doesn't mean the specific group of people aren't excluding him.
I encountered the nastiest clique who excluded me at a northern uni, largely because I was from the south, professional northerners. Things improved in the 2nd and 3rd years. Moving isn't a magic solution, nor is the north something out of GP tips and bread ads. If he's depressed that needs treating or he will be miserable anywhere.
OP you mention suicide, if you're genuinely that concerned, he needs urgent medical help, talking about suicide should always be taken seriously. He could start with going to his GP, and iirc you say he's having counselling, so he could also talk to his counsellor about risk and what to do if said risk is more than a counsellor can deal with. I'm sorry he's having a bad time, things can get better.

he really is trying - he's exercising regularly, seeing a counsellor, is moving to different accomodation, has joined all kinds of groups. But remains isolated and lonely.

I really don't understand how changing universities would help. Why shouldn't the same thing happen again there? Because there are not so many Chinese people around him?

Sounds like he wants to move because of this Newcastle girl. What if the relationship doesn't work out (assuming she isn't already with someone else - which would be completely normal at this age)?

Admitting students with sub-standard language skills is the fault of the institution.

The only students with sub-standard language skills that I have taught are British. The standard of written work of our British students in my subject (entering with very high A level grades in STEM subjects) is shocking. International students typically far out perform them in writing reports and dissertations. But, hey, why let facts get in the way of a good xenophobic story?

As someone who was in a similarly shitty situation with halls (asked for all female halls; got mixed halls with 5 people who made instant friends and kept me awake until 3 or 4am most nights with their parties), I would definitely say to give the change in accommodation a chance, because it can make a difference.

Having said that, I had major social anxiety and ended up suffering from depression too. As a result I ended up dropping out of my course, but I didn't have good mental health support at uni or supportive parents so please don't think your DS will end up in the same situation as me. What I would say is that if the change in accommodation doesn't help, your DS needs to do what feels right for him, and if that means leaving his current uni and starting again somewhere else next year then I would hope your DH accepts that. The examples a lot of us have given here might help persuade him that it's about looking after yourself and your MH, which is v important.

My first experience of uni was similar. I became miserable, depressed and lost a lot of weight so I made the decision to leave said well known and reputable uni at xmas.
Went to a different uni nearer home the following year and loved it.

Nothing's worth being unhappy for and lots of people have false starts.

The % is certainly higher than the actual % of private schools, but the fact is over half of the students at Oxbridge are state educated, (and many privately educated students are not from particularly wealthy backgrounds.) That’s half the university in the boat as you.

I’ve never really understood why people find pissed Sloane intimidating - they’re just tiresome.

State intake to Cambridge is 62%, even if it were 20 years ago it would have been 50% so it’s simply not true that most of your peers were public/private school and wealthy When I went, it was about 45% state, and of those, at least a third were from selective grammars. So, in general, about a third of the intake was from comprehensive school. In my particular college, it was much less to the extent that they openly asked for comprehensive school students, particularly women, to apply as both were vastly under-represented. I think it's a bit dismissive to just write this off- I found lovely friends at Cambridge, but it was hard work at times to make sense of the very strange public school culture which was still very pervasive.

I was a complete novelty at Cambridge - I only met one good friend who hadn't been to either grammar or private school and she was from Australia!!