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Feminism: chat

How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

1000 replies

Hadmysay · 20/05/2025 19:54

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
winnieanddaisy · 22/05/2025 13:12

I was a teenager in the 60’s . We used to walk away from home rolling our skirts up to make than shorter for school .
how were our parents supposed to police that ?
Girls are just the same today .

TropicalRain · 22/05/2025 13:13

weaselstopper · 22/05/2025 12:44

I’m not arguing we should all be walking round totally covered head to foot, of course that also says something about those societies.

I agree with you absolutely that ‘we can’t win’. I don’t understand why we can’t talk about what these choices do say and where they come from without being accused of saying women who dress provocatively deserve to be assaulted or that countries where women are covered are ‘safer’. It’s demonstrably untrue.

We don’t decide how to dress in a vacuum and these decisions DO come from somewhere. It can only be a good thing to stop and think about this and how it relates to how women are seen in society (whether that’s ours or Afghanistan), because ‘how society views women and sex’ impacts on male violence.

One of the videos in the opening post is about someone who would blame a teen for being sexually assaulted because they wore a short skirt. So you may be saying it is a separate conversation and we should be able to reflect on clothing choices in general, but people here are responding to the OP.

Even as a separate question however, the better question is "Why is the male of the species so violent?", or "Why do male-run companies promote the hyper sexualisation of young girls, and boys, to the detriment of all society, in order to sell products?", or even "How do we dismantle this system we live in that degrades all life in order to generate super profits for a morally bankrupt few?".

Those are all questions I would start with before looking at how women dress.

Deadringer · 22/05/2025 13:16

I don't think there is any correlation between sexual assault and what the victim is wearing, but I think that schiol uniforms should be practical and comfortable and yes, modest, no short skirts for girls or tiny shorts for boys (which admittedly isn't usually a thing).

KnitFastDieWarm · 22/05/2025 13:18

PermanentTemporary · 22/05/2025 06:14

I believe porn contributes to rape culture in that it is full of images of women being violated and a huge amount of images of women in pain (lots of other things too; but that's the core of it). The violation is the arousing bit.

Porn doesn't have lots of images of women in revealing clothes and other women covered up and suggests that it's better to go for the ones in revealing clothing. 'Modest' clothing in porn is there to be ripped off.

this. It’s not the exposed female body that’s the issue, it’s the idea that women’s bodies are objects to be used and abused.

NameChangedOfc · 22/05/2025 13:20

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 04:44

The thing is we dont actually know this statistically (I'm not saying your wrong) but doesn't it depend on the country though? I would argue women living somewhere like saudi arabia or kuwait are raped less than somewhere like the uk or the United States.

Are you excluding marital rape?

Crispynoodle · 22/05/2025 13:37

Teach boys not to objectify, rape or assault girls. This is slut shaming people should have the freedom to wear what they want

AllotmentTime · 22/05/2025 13:37

I do find it funny that everyday we talk about the negative side effects of pornography on society and how it contributes to rape culture due to constant sexual images of women yet when it comes to how women and girls dress in this country i,e constant sexual images now it somehow doesn't contribute to rape. Which one is it.

Pornography is images of people having actual sex. The women have often been trafficked. It's often violent in portrayal / in reality / both. It's often extreme. It normalises sex that is neither respectful nor consensual. It absolutely contributes to rape culture.

A thirteen year old walking to school in a rolled up skirt* is not a sexual image. Is not pornography. Is not making any kind of commentary on sex or porn. Is not contributing to rape culture.

*or to widen this from your question OP, any person going about their non-sex-related business wearing anything

HTH 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 13:48

This is slut shaming people should have the freedom to wear what they want

this is disingenuous though because as society we judge people & what they are wearing. I mean we can pretend people don't but they do.

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 13:50

It’s not the exposed female body that’s the issue, it’s the idea that women’s bodies are objects to be used and abused.

I think social media plays a huge part in objectifying woman's bodies. Take the Kardashians who will often post a photo just of their torso in lingerie or whatever but look at how society had rewarded them for that.

Vinvertebrate · 22/05/2025 13:51

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 05:21

Well my stats from numerous websites and how I know it to be true because I live in the uk but I have visited both countries and I have also met many people who have visited those two countries who speak of how safe they are for women.

Here's some more anecdata for you. I grew up in the UK and made some questionable choices in my teens and twenties in terms of revealing a lot of cleavage, leg, etc. I was never sexually assaulted or raped.

OTOH I spent 5 years living in the ME and experienced 3 sexual assaults, all whilst modestly dressed. The first - man randomly grabbed my right breast in a mall in Abu Dhabi - I pushed him and yelled, making a scene, Nobody helped and a few people looked alarmed and scurried away.

The second - man came to my apartment in Dubai to deliver something and pushed his way in - I threw him out, complained to his employer and he was dismissed from his job (which might have meant deportation), but all concerned advised against telling the police.

The third, and worst, occurred in Saudi Arabia. I was staying in a hotel in Riyadh where they had a corridor used to house "business women" (so basically everyone knew where to find rooms full of unaccompanied females). Four men tried to break down my hotel door, initially with their key cards and then with force. I was on the phone to the hotel receptionist who simply pretended he could not understand what I was telling him. (He'd spoken perfectly good English 10 minutes before). I suspect this was because the men trying to get in were Saudi and well-connected.

The men in countries where "modest clothing" is the norm don't behave any better. There is just much less recourse for women to do anything about it - e.g. in Iran (where DH is from), a woman's testimony is worth 1/4 of a man's, and it's not exactly difficult to see how that's going to turn out.

Rapists are the problem.

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:25

JeremiahBullfrog · 22/05/2025 09:44

It really doesn't help women to pretend men commit rape entirely at random and there are no factors which might allow us to predict when rape is more likely. Identifying these factors isn't victim blaming.

I don't understand rapist psychology, so I don't really know what most of those factors are. I don't know if wearing a short skirt makes a woman more appealing to a rapist or not. But it might do so, and confidently stating it can't do so might just be putting women in more danger.

And of course, not all rapists are the same. The ones raping elderly women and children may not be the same as the ones targeting young women. Whether or not the first group(s) care about what their victims are wearing doesn't necessarily tell us much about what members of the latter group might prefer.

what about men who are raped? Is it because they were dressed sexily or drunk?

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:29

JeremiahBullfrog · 22/05/2025 09:44

It really doesn't help women to pretend men commit rape entirely at random and there are no factors which might allow us to predict when rape is more likely. Identifying these factors isn't victim blaming.

I don't understand rapist psychology, so I don't really know what most of those factors are. I don't know if wearing a short skirt makes a woman more appealing to a rapist or not. But it might do so, and confidently stating it can't do so might just be putting women in more danger.

And of course, not all rapists are the same. The ones raping elderly women and children may not be the same as the ones targeting young women. Whether or not the first group(s) care about what their victims are wearing doesn't necessarily tell us much about what members of the latter group might prefer.

But you also haven’t mentioned about the women who are raped in strict countries where they are covered. Millions of women are raped. So why are they raped? Do you research

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:33

letsallchant · 22/05/2025 10:15

Amazing really how men are both higher earners cos of their innate superiority and skills and logic and all that, yet are also apparently unable to control their instinctive reactions when they want to rape someone. Puzzling

It’s called sarcasm love. Read my comments 🙄

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:38

Brefugee · 22/05/2025 11:12

Whores, prostitutes, call-girls, escorts etc etc do not deserve to be raped either.

nobody does

men are the problem. Everywhere whether or not women have rights or not, are allowed to wear what they want or not.

Men. Are. The. Problem.

And added to that the police are a problem, the judiciary are a problem. To a greater or lesser degree according to where you are.

Well OP thinks this. Also thinks debauchery and objectification are reasons for rape. No mention that rapists are 100% the cause.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 14:47

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 12:56

What mixed messages?

The mixed messages in society.

Young people are encouraged on the one hand to dress provocatively, look a certain way, have surgery & be empowered etc. But society also judges that. Or have they stopped using a women's outfit and behaviour in defence arguments in sexual assault trials? Young boys are told not to objectify women but society does it constantly.

I think the mixed messages are very confusing for young boys & girls

Young boys and girls aren't having surgery or encouraged to dress provocatively.

.

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:51

weaselstopper · 22/05/2025 11:32

Men are to be blamed for rape full stop. Of course how you dress is not a protection against sexual assault. I know that all too well myself.

However I agree with pp that of course sexualised clothing for women and girls is part of porn culture, how could it not be? Do men wear clothes designed to display and enhance sexualised areas of their body? No, they do not. For whose benefit is it for women to wear revealing clothes? Why do a significant minority of people think it’s ‘acceptable’ to make a t shirt that says ‘total slut’ on it in age 7-8?

Can we have a conversation about this without pretending that anyone who wants to discuss it is ‘victim blaming’

How one person dresses isn’t protection for them as an individual but on a societal level I think it does affect how women are viewed by that society and keeps the idea of sex ‘closer to the surface’. Perhaps at the very least it makes it ‘acceptable’ for a man to casually check out their female friend’s breasts, as she’s wearing a top that exposes half of them …

I DON’T think that means the female friend is responsible for being sexually assaulted.

Clearly I don’t agree with these tik tok videos either

But fashion and dress is at the very least a reflection of society and says SOMETHING. We can argue about what that is, but it’s totally stupid to say it’s not influenced by our culture and reinforcing our culture in some way

I think you’re getting confused with porn and rape culture.

No one is saying that wearing sexualised clothes is not part of porn culture? Who is saying that in the threads? Who are this significant amount of minority that think it’s okay for a 7 ur old to wear at shirt saying slut? Where is this evidence?

People are arguing what you wear do not dictate in you getting raped or not. Lots of people have mentioned what about women who are raped in strict countries that have to cover up? Millions of them, still getting raped but aren’t having their boobs on show. What about children, babies, the elderly, men? Are they dressing too sexily? Take all them things into account then come back with an informed opinion.

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 14:55

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 11:43

I think the mixed messages are very confusing for young boys & girls.

What you on about? What is confusing? Consent? Saying no? Raping them?

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 15:00

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 22/05/2025 12:08

There is a big problem in our local secondary school with all the girls rolling up the tops of their skirts so they are shorter.
You can see their knickers quite often.
They don't wear tights anymore just knee high socks.
I am not saying short skirt allows for rape but I do think it attracts sexual attention.
And the attention, from what I see, is from dirty old men.

Also, I am going to get flamed for this.... but 90% of the girls at our local secondary are very overweight. So fat thighs bulging out under a mini skirt and fat knees rolling over knee high socks looks awful.

Not saying girls should cover up. Not saying fat people should cover up - suggesting there are ways to dress that look better!

You’re talking about two different things. Dirty old men who are perving on children and you hating “fat young girls”

GlobalCitz · 22/05/2025 15:03

Nuns have been raped.

Nuns. Wearing habits.

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 15:06

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 12:56

What mixed messages?

The mixed messages in society.

Young people are encouraged on the one hand to dress provocatively, look a certain way, have surgery & be empowered etc. But society also judges that. Or have they stopped using a women's outfit and behaviour in defence arguments in sexual assault trials? Young boys are told not to objectify women but society does it constantly.

You said young girls and boys, so you mean children right? Because I doubt anyone is encouraging children to dress sexily or get plastic surgery. What has plastic surgery got to do with rape? What has feeling empowered got to do with rape?

Fortean · 22/05/2025 15:11

Yes, because women who live in countries where modest dress is enforced never get raped…oh!

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 15:17

@BeJollyEagle my point about the mixed messages in society was wider than just rape but the pornification of our culture which impacts young people and children. I didn't think it was that radical a view point!

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 15:19

@BeJollyEagle I'm not sure how I have confused you. My general point about mixed messages was in response to the OP, it doesn't say rape in her title?

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 15:21

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 15:19

@BeJollyEagle I'm not sure how I have confused you. My general point about mixed messages was in response to the OP, it doesn't say rape in her title?

Could you be more specific about the mixed messages children get?

treetopsgreen · 22/05/2025 15:22

The whole internet if full of messages aimed at girls to be as sexy as possible. This is drilled into them from a very early age. They see celebrities pretty much naked on the red carpet. However, if a 13 year old girl wears a short skirt, it is suddenly her fault if she gets assaulted? That is pure hypocrisy.

This is exactly my point. @BeJollyEagle do you think society doesn't give out these messages? My acknowledgment that the hypocrisy exists doesn't mean I condone it. I ask again do defence teams still use a women's behaviour and outfit in sexual assaults cases or does this not happen?

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