How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

But you said “ mixed messages” how on earth are people suppose to know what you mean? You were talking about plastic surgery and empowerment? How are these viewed as pontification? But yes, blame rape on plastic surgery and teaching children empowerment. Never the rapists fault is it?

@MiloMinderbinder925 that people should wear & be free to do what they like. They should of course but do you think that people don't judge? Anytime you see a story about a women getting attacked if she cuts through a park at night or meeting a stranger etc you can guarantee there will be comments about "I wouldn't be walking through a park at night" or "I wouldn't go to a strange man's house" etc. Or is this completely left field and you have never seen such a thing?

@BeJollyEagle I do think encouraging young people to have certain plastic surgery is pornification of culture. I'm not sure how empowering the likes of Bonnie Blue are. You don't have to agree with me though.

But yes, blame rape on plastic surgery and teaching children empowerment. Never the rapists fault is it?

I haven't done this at all so i'm not sure why you have inferred I have said that? Recognising that society is hypocritical is not a reflection of my personal opinion.
Are you saying society isn't hypocritical or judgemental?

Never the rapists fault is it?

Of course it's the rapists fault but that's my opinion. I can't extrapolate that to everyone and clearly all people don't think that hence why convictions are so low.

It reminds me when I said Trump was likely to win! Apparently recognising that he was popular meant I must be a uber MAGA fan. It's hard to have any kind of debate when comprehension is so lacking.

I'm not so sure. If you include marital rape then maybe not. Generally women are expected to obey their husbands.

I think they are wrong to blame the girls, the girls are only young and reacting to the pornified culture they are raised in. I see it myself very young girls wearing clothes that look straight out of an X-rated film or photoshoot. I ask myself who designs these and then sells them to very young girls? They are the one's to blame as they blatantly objectify and sexualise children. Parents do have a say but I think it can be difficult for parents to go against the tide when everyone else is doing something.

It is true that in an ideal world women should be able to dress how they want and do what they want. It is also true that we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a world where men do objectify women, see us as objects, see even a smile or politeness as an invitation. So realistically it is probably sensible to let that knowledge inform your choices. However it is never a woman's fault if a man attacks her and sadly no matter how you dress you are still at risk.

The data seems to suggest that it's mainly women watching the most violent types of porn though. Men consume much more but generally don't search for the really abusive stuff. I've seen a few studies now that all seem to suggest it's a trauma response (so not really their fault but still supporting the genre by consuming it).

https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn/

Well this wasn’t the case for me and I don’t think you can generalise everyone’s experience, so no I don’t agree the whole internet is full of messages aimed at girls being sexy as possible. What exactly are these messages which target girls (minors) specifically? Drilled from an early age? What are these kids watching to make this statement?

Celebrities possibly are dressing almost naked on the red carpet but if this is what you’re referring too, then yes, it may be viewed as sexualised. The big difference is these celebs are adults. Not children. These messages are aimed at women not GIRLS. You don’t see celebrity kids walking around like that do you. Also wearing a short skirt is very different to wearing almost nothing. Women’s fashion has all ways been sexualised, it’s not a new thing,

i have no idea what defences teams do. I am not a lawyer, never been to court, don’t know exactly every rule throughout the world on this.

You were talking about young boys and girls. I was interested to hear the 'mixed messages ' children are getting.

Blame rape on rapists.

Fine, I'm obviously trying to have a discussion and the thread hasn’t really gone in that direction.

Enough people have given the opinion I agree with on that (I thought I made it clear I agree with you), so I have nothing of value to add there. I think there’s a worthwhile discussion to be had on how we dress and what it signifies about attitudes towards sex in our society.

To answer your last paragraph, if a minority of people didn’t want to sexualise children’s clothing then these products wouldn’t be available to buy and continue to be designed. I am saying that the fact these products exist for prepubescent girls demonstrates that women and girls are sexualised from an early age (by some, not by everyone).

@mintbru

It is also true that we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a world where men do objectify women, see us as objects, see even a smile or politeness as an invitation. So realistically it is probably sensible to let that knowledge inform your choices.

What choices? Are you saying that women shouldn't smile at men lest they're raped?

Why focus on women's choices when they're not the perpetrators and aren't responsible for their behaviour?

Who is doing the encouraging though? When you make a statement saying encouraging young people who are you talking about? Young people= children. Again who is empowering Bonnie Blue?

You originally said mixed messages. Then started saying how society is hypocritical. What has mixed messages going to do about men raping women? This is what the thread is about.

@treetopsgreen I think it’s because you can’t really articulate a sentence. Randomly saying mixed messages, would be hard for anyone to comprehend.

@MiloMinderbinder925 I'm not saying that but for me I would choose not to wear clothes that are revealing or get drunk and unless you've never been on the tube, women don't typically smile or make eye contact with men because far too many of them do see it as an invitation, just like if they do if you show a lot of skin or get pissed. Its shit, no woman should be blamed but we live in a world with men, many of them bad.

I totally see your point of view, I get why you say what you do and why you are angry and disagree I do to but I'm a realist.

It contributes to rape culture by encouraging the fantasy that every kind of sex is available to any man. It promotes a sense of entitlement to the use of other people's bodies for sex.

Pornography doesn't promote any particular style of dress, it's not a fashion show!

I think the mixed messages thing might be explained by testosterone. Apparently it’s a hell of hormone. Many young men think that women share their experience of sex and sexual arousal, which is why you get so many men sending potential dates dick pics - because that visual stimulation from a complete stranger makes perfect sense to them while making zero sense to a woman.
So you have a bunch of immature young men or boys who see women wearing sexualised clothing and all they see is availability and invitation. Most would give their right arm to have sex with pretty much any woman and would certainly accept as many random gropes as they could get. So it’s really difficult for them to understand that women DONT enjoy that and DONT want that kind of attention. But then why would they dress that way if they didn’t want that kind of attention???
To add complexity, men get told women want nice guys, but then they date the bad guys, that they want a guy with a solid job but then the drug dealers all seem to have girlfriends, that they like men who can express their femininity but of course that was never even partly true… So I’m not sticking up for men here, but when they complain about mixed messages I can see why it’s confusing.

I think Attitudes towards sex in society is a separate conversation to the one we are having here though. I mean both could overlap and think that would be a worthwhile conversation. I‘m not disagreeing with you that young girls are sexualised but that has nothing to do with my original comments.

You're not a 'realist' and I'm not angry.

You're part of the problem. You think, despite the overwhelming evidence against, that women are responsible for being sexually assaulted.

The vast , vast majority of rape is committed by someone the woman knows. Stranger rape is very rare.

Therefore, according to your logic, women shouldn't drink, meet the eye of a man or show any skin to her friends, colleagues or spouse.

However, in countries where women cover themselves up and dress 'modestly', sexual assault is endemic. Can you explain why?

No, they were seen as easy to manipulate because of their circumstances. It had nothing to do with clothing.

I don't for a minute think they are responsible. As I said women often go to extreme lengths to avoid smiling or talking to men in this country. Just look at the faces of other women on public transport these days, staring at the floor stony faced. They aren't doing that because they are all miserable they are doing it because they don't want to inadvertently invite unwanted attention.

Also who do you think picks the trends and styles, who wants young women to wear very revealing and ultra sexualised clothing at a young age? Do you think it is other women?

@Happyinarcon

Sending dick pics is a criminal offence called cyber flashing. Men who do it are deviants who know perfectly well that it's not welcome. They are getting off on it being unwelcome.

So it’s really difficult for them to understand that women DONT enjoy that and DONT want that kind of attention. But then why would they dress that way if they didn’t want that kind of attention???

You're acting as though young boys have never met a woman and don't know how to behave. That they don't understand that women have agency and the way they dress is not an invitation to sexually assault them.

They have a mum, sisters, cousins, school friends and understand that they can't make unwanted sexual advances no matter their levels of testosterone. That assaulting people is a criminal offence.

I’m not sticking up for men here, but when they complain about mixed messages I can see why it’s confusing.

You're making excuses for bad behaviour.

I stopped watching the first video after she said "cry rape". Does the silly bint think women who are covered from head to toe aren't raped? Men will rape fucking babies FGS!

The first time I was groped I was NINE and wearing my school uniform. Oh and the skirt covered my knees, and the proper was a bloke in his 40s!

It is also true that we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a world where men do objectify women, see us as objects, see even a smile or politeness as an invitation. So realistically it is probably sensible to let that knowledge inform your choices.

I think it's possible to accept that we shouldn't have to do certain things for our own safety but sometimes it's realistically wise to.

Remember that British couple that got arrested for 'espionage' after deciding to go on a roadtrip through Iran? The comments on the thread here were invariably non sympathetic and full of people saying "no sympathy from me....they were idiots to ever think this was a good idea". But really this is victim blaming too if we use the same perspective.

@mintbru

I live in London and the reason I avoid meeting the eye of anyone on public transport is because there are weirdos and drunks who I don't want to engage with.

It's not because I'm terrified that a man will see my ankle and coy smile and be unable to contain his excitement.

Also who do you think picks the trends and styles, who wants young women to wear very revealing and ultra sexualised clothing at a young age? Do you think it is other women?

Women choose to wear what they want. You're circling back to women being responsible for unwanted behaviour because of how they look. No one is responsible for someone else's behaviour.