Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

1000 replies

Hadmysay · 20/05/2025 19:54

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
ItsFineReally · 22/05/2025 10:10

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 05:31

Does pornography contribute to rape culture?

What do you mean when you talk of a 'rape culture'?

User478 · 22/05/2025 10:11

wineandwhin · 22/05/2025 00:42

@2024onwardsandup That is not because women are forced to cover up, it is because of the severity of the punishment in islamic law for rape

The main effect of making the punishment for rape and SA very severe is that fewer rapes and SAs are reported and tried as they "don't want to ruin the poor lad's life over it"

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 10:13

User478 · 22/05/2025 10:11

The main effect of making the punishment for rape and SA very severe is that fewer rapes and SAs are reported and tried as they "don't want to ruin the poor lad's life over it"

They could be anything really. Getting a man prosecuted for rape is fantastical when your word is worth half of his and there are no witnesses.

letsallchant · 22/05/2025 10:15

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 05:16

You think men can’t control their sexual urges and go round raping due to encouragement of debauchery or objectification.

Amazing really how men are both higher earners cos of their innate superiority and skills and logic and all that, yet are also apparently unable to control their instinctive reactions when they want to rape someone. Puzzling

Frateletheboss · 22/05/2025 10:17

User37482 · 22/05/2025 10:08

What strikes me is men walk around half naked yet women manage not to sexually assault men all the time. If we genuinely believe men are so incapable of controlling themselves we really should give them all a tag and a curfew.

Do I think sometimes people pass the point of decency yes. Do I think thats connected to rape, no not really. That exhibition, theres a little girls dress that just breaks my heart.

Men are more likely to be raped by other men than by women. It has nothing to do with clothes and everything to do with the victim being physically weaker.

User37482 · 22/05/2025 10:18

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 04:44

The thing is we dont actually know this statistically (I'm not saying your wrong) but doesn't it depend on the country though? I would argue women living somewhere like saudi arabia or kuwait are raped less than somewhere like the uk or the United States.

Domestic violence rates across some arab countries is around 40%. I read a horrible study on rape by relatives in palestine (brothers and fathers). For those who can bear to look at it there is a link below.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350499359ThesexuallyAbusedPalestinianchildrenRealityandHopePresenttothetrilateralconferenceatGeissen-GermanySexualabuseofPalestinianchildren

I think in a lot of arab societies specifically women don’t report and abuse is most likely to be directed at wives and family members. Just because it’s your husband doesn’t mean it’s not rape. I think you also have to consider what people think of as rape will be mediated by society. DH absolutely will not have sex with me if I’ve had a drink and he’s sober (I know, I’ve tried to convince him, he doesn’t think I can give full consent) vs someone who believe they have an obligation to have sex, however much they don’t want to or feel coerced into it for religious reasons (I think this is true in a few religions, not just islam). A woman can feel violated yet believe she has not been raped and the society she lives in wouldn’t consider it to be rape either. Whereas raping a stranger or a woman who is not your wife may be seen as actual rape.

In asian societies a lot of men just don’t believe their wives are entitled to say no, theres been a big thing about making rape illegal in marriage in India. The response of many Indian men has made me feel utterly sick.

DuckieDodgyHedgyPiggy · 22/05/2025 10:19

Renabrook · 22/05/2025 03:24

How many rapes are by strangers and how many by people the woman knows, is it really what the are wearing?

Good point. If the perpetrator knows the victim then it's going to be opportunity that dictates when the assault takes place.

User37482 · 22/05/2025 10:19

Frateletheboss · 22/05/2025 10:17

Men are more likely to be raped by other men than by women. It has nothing to do with clothes and everything to do with the victim being physically weaker.

Well yes exactly, my point was that men are entirely responsible for their own actions and what you are wearing is not incitement to rape.

Deathraystare · 22/05/2025 10:21

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 06:34

There is also a babygrow…

Why am I not surprised.....

CraneBeak · 22/05/2025 11:03

Can you clarify your question OP.

Are you asking whether women are more likely to get raped if they were short skirts?

Are you suggesting that women should cover up so that men aren't tempted to rape them?

Are you suggesting that women deserve to be raped?

There is no version of this argument that could ever be in good faith. Women never deserve or ask to be raped. They deserve and ask to live in safety form men, always. And anyway, there is no correlation.

Brefugee · 22/05/2025 11:10

Hadmysay · 20/05/2025 19:54

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

no. this is a text-based board. Can you summarise? I have no interest in listening to a TikTok - they mumble, wave their hands around, and waffle.

But. I'm guessing victim blaming. Which can get in the sea.

Brefugee · 22/05/2025 11:12

BeJollyEagle · 22/05/2025 05:11

I think ops post is basically saying in not so many words “if you dress like a whore then you’re asking to be raped” no mention about the clothing on the babies, children, elderly women and men that are raped.

Whores, prostitutes, call-girls, escorts etc etc do not deserve to be raped either.

nobody does

men are the problem. Everywhere whether or not women have rights or not, are allowed to wear what they want or not.

Men. Are. The. Problem.

And added to that the police are a problem, the judiciary are a problem. To a greater or lesser degree according to where you are.

EvelynBeatrice · 22/05/2025 11:15

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 04:44

The thing is we dont actually know this statistically (I'm not saying your wrong) but doesn't it depend on the country though? I would argue women living somewhere like saudi arabia or kuwait are raped less than somewhere like the uk or the United States.

!!!
it depends on whether you accept the western definition of rape as being penetrative intercourse without the woman’s consent. If the law in such countries permits rape in marriage or doesn’t recognise the concept of having the right not to consent to sex or accords the word of a woman half the value of that of a man or penalises women who complain of rape or has corrupt or misogynistic systems or any of the foregoing, then you will never be able to ‘know/ prove’ what the real situation is …..,

But we can make a well educated guess based on what we know of men’s behaviour throughout history as enhanced by modern internet porn.

I remember my flatmate at university coming in one winter evening having been shouted at in the street as ‘ a whore ‘ by a passing car of men. Her face and body were almost entirely concealed by an enormous puffer coat and boots - not an inch of flesh or figure revealed. It’s not what you wear that’s the issue. She’s petite - it was her being female that was enough.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 11:15

Brefugee · 22/05/2025 11:10

no. this is a text-based board. Can you summarise? I have no interest in listening to a TikTok - they mumble, wave their hands around, and waffle.

But. I'm guessing victim blaming. Which can get in the sea.

A young mother doesn't like school girls wearing short skirts. If they get sexually assaulted or raped, it's their fault and she'd tell that to her own daughter.

The second video is a woman who thinks girls should dress modestly and stop wearing tiny shorts and crop tops.

BobbyBiscuits · 22/05/2025 11:22

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 04:55

In those two countries I would put good money on them being raped less.
They probably do report things less though

I would assume it would be a case that once women are married in some of those cultures, they often are no longer able to refuse sex from their husband. So it's because they have less consent, they are seen as their husband's possession.
I could be wrong of course but countries with poor women's rights are likely to have more rape/SA but less reporting of it.

Jbo17 · 22/05/2025 11:22

User37482 · 22/05/2025 10:08

What strikes me is men walk around half naked yet women manage not to sexually assault men all the time. If we genuinely believe men are so incapable of controlling themselves we really should give them all a tag and a curfew.

Do I think sometimes people pass the point of decency yes. Do I think thats connected to rape, no not really. That exhibition, theres a little girls dress that just breaks my heart.

Exactly! You’re spot on. If men can’t control themselves they should all be tagged & given curfews. Men wear way less than women and we control ourselves. It’s absolute rubbish they can’t control themselves. That’s a massive excuse & a way to blame women for bad men. I do not believe what a woman wears matters. Rapists are rapists regardless.

Cityofangels25 · 22/05/2025 11:25

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 00:30

I managed to get into TikTok and see both videos.

The first woman has a point, I also have a problem with children in tiny skirts. However she then becomes demented and says that if her daughter was sexually assaulted she'd blame her.

The two are not connected. A predator really doesn't care what you're wearing and only a paedophile thinks a child is asking to be assaulted.

The second raises an issue which has been prevalent for a while, why do designers make sexualised clothes for children? Why are they available to buy?

I agree that children should not be sexualised.

I had to go and buy my 4 year old some swimsuits for our holiday and the amount of tiny bikinis available for that age group is shocking!

Hardlyworking · 22/05/2025 11:25

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 11:15

A young mother doesn't like school girls wearing short skirts. If they get sexually assaulted or raped, it's their fault and she'd tell that to her own daughter.

The second video is a woman who thinks girls should dress modestly and stop wearing tiny shorts and crop tops.

Fucking hell. Tiktok really is a mouthpiece for the terminally dim.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 11:29

Women are raped because some men are rapists.

It has fuck all to do with what they wear and we need to stop blaming the victims.

weaselstopper · 22/05/2025 11:32

Men are to be blamed for rape full stop. Of course how you dress is not a protection against sexual assault. I know that all too well myself.

However I agree with pp that of course sexualised clothing for women and girls is part of porn culture, how could it not be? Do men wear clothes designed to display and enhance sexualised areas of their body? No, they do not. For whose benefit is it for women to wear revealing clothes? Why do a significant minority of people think it’s ‘acceptable’ to make a t shirt that says ‘total slut’ on it in age 7-8?

Can we have a conversation about this without pretending that anyone who wants to discuss it is ‘victim blaming’

How one person dresses isn’t protection for them as an individual but on a societal level I think it does affect how women are viewed by that society and keeps the idea of sex ‘closer to the surface’. Perhaps at the very least it makes it ‘acceptable’ for a man to casually check out their female friend’s breasts, as she’s wearing a top that exposes half of them …

I DON’T think that means the female friend is responsible for being sexually assaulted.

Clearly I don’t agree with these tik tok videos either

But fashion and dress is at the very least a reflection of society and says SOMETHING. We can argue about what that is, but it’s totally stupid to say it’s not influenced by our culture and reinforcing our culture in some way

MmeChoufleur · 22/05/2025 11:38

This thread is beyond offensive. I was raped by a stranger on my way home from work one early evening. I was sober, wearing baggy jeans and a t-shirt but frankly, even if I’d been in a bikini and falling down drunk it didn’t give him the right to do what he did to me.

thenightsky · 22/05/2025 11:39

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/05/2025 04:55

This is a perfectly clear comment. I don't understand why several responses have ignored 'not'.

Thank God its not just me. Why is everyone reading this wrongly?

They are NOT raped less means they are raped just as much.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 22/05/2025 11:40

Cityofangels25 · 22/05/2025 11:25

I had to go and buy my 4 year old some swimsuits for our holiday and the amount of tiny bikinis available for that age group is shocking!

It's awful. In fact there was a MN campaign a few years ago on the sexualisation of girl's clothes.

LucyMonth · 22/05/2025 11:40

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/natureofsexualassaultbyrapeorpenetrationenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#amount-and-type-of-sexual-assault-experienced

“For the years ending March 2017 and March 2020 combined, victims who experienced sexual assault by rape or penetration since the age of 16 years were most likely to be victimised by their partner or ex-partner (44%). This was closely followed by someone who was known to them other than a partner or family member (37%), which includes friends (12%) and dates (10%)”

So no, when you have this many people being raped by someone they know what they are wearing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Rape isn’t about sex. There has been an abundance of research into the psychology of rapists and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what their victim was wearing.

For example “specialist rapists” are people who are aroused by the lack of consent. “Partner rapists” tend to rape as a form of punishment towards their partner. “High mating effort rapists” are what today we’d call incels. They believe they are owed sex if they pay for meal. Btw the last two are more common in more conservative countries where women dress more modestly because culturally woman are seen as they’re partners property. So your random assessment that rape occurs less in Middle Eastern countries is unsubstantiated. In many of these countries rape within a marriage isn’t a crime and sex outside a marriage is. So unmarried women who are raped don’t report it as they themselves can be accused of “zina” and end up in prison. It’s the most common reason for women to be imprisoned in these countries. In Afghanistan it’s 95% of women who are imprisoned for “zina”

There are life factors that make someone more likely to rape. For example someone who experienced abuse of any kind as a child is 5 x more likely to become a rapist. Alcoholics are 2.6 x more likely to commit rape. Some subject to adult trauma, such as war, is 2.5 x more likely to rape.

As for children…this is a an odd dichotomy. People like the woman in your first Tik Tok are under the false impression that children wearing “revealing” or “sexualised” clothing puts them at great risk of assault, but it doesn’t. It is highly unpleasant to think about but research into pedophilia has shown that these people like kids who look like kids. They are attracted to their childishness. They are attracted to their innocence. So an 8 year old who dresses like a 16 year old isn’t what they want. They want an 8 year old.

You can find interviews with pedophiles where they talk about becoming disgusted with a child they were assaulting as soon as signs of puberty started to show. Sprouting breasts and widening hips are not what they are looking for.

Pedophiles tend to go for children in a very specific age range and it is usually the age they were when they started to be assaulted themselves. Their sexuality never matures beyond that point. You don’t tend to see pedophiles who assault 13 year old girls and 5 year old girls. They have a “type”. Those who don’t have a “type”, such as Ian Brady, show signs that what they are aroused by is sexual deviancy rather than the child themselves. It’s the knowing that they are doing something deplorable.

But sure let’s reduce all this down to short skirts.

Nature of sexual assault by rape or penetration, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Information from the Crime Survey for England and Wales on the amount, type and nature of sexual assault by rape or penetration (including attempts) experienced since the age of 16 years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/natureofsexualassaultbyrapeorpenetrationenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#amount-and-type-of-sexual-assault-experienced

KurtansCurtain · 22/05/2025 11:40

Hadmysay · 22/05/2025 04:44

The thing is we dont actually know this statistically (I'm not saying your wrong) but doesn't it depend on the country though? I would argue women living somewhere like saudi arabia or kuwait are raped less than somewhere like the uk or the United States.

Surely in countries where women are unable to divorce abusive husbands or seek help for abuse, they’re arguably more likely to be raped?

marital rape is still rape

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread