How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

I think the mixed messages are very confusing for young boys & girls.

so even without looking i knew the content.

It is so depressing.

It's not just the men.

There are plenty of women who harm other women in all cultures.

Plenty of women who enforce damaging cultural traditions and uphold men's rights to harm other women, even their own daughters.

The women the OP mentions are women who want to control what other women's choice are, to limit them, to dictate them.

Thy believe this is 'what's best for them'

It's not. What is best for women is for them to make decisions for themselves in an equal society where they the ability to make real choices.

I think we need to push back hard against anyone man or woman, who is trying to force women backwards into accepting a lesser role with fewer choices.

Do we talk about what men wear causing them to be attacked? No, we don't. That's because we think men are allowed to make their own choices. Women need that too.

we really don't always need a "what about da menz" every single time we talk about male violence about women and girls.

Really. JUST STOP IT

But fashion and dress is at the very least a reflection of society and says SOMETHING. We can argue about what that is, but it’s totally stupid to say it’s not influenced by our culture and reinforcing our culture in some way

This bit right here though…you can’t have it both ways. In countries where women are expected (& usually legally obliged) to dress conservatively that is also “a reflection of that society” which is usually that women don’t have the same rights as men, they are inferior to men, they are the property of men, men are owed sex by women. These things make them more vulnerable to rape.

In Afghanistan rape is a serious crime. Why? Because they believe in women’s bodily autonomy? Nope, because you have “ruined” that woman’s “purity” making her of no value. It’s seen as a crime against her family and their honour. Zina is also a crime in Afghanistan (sex outside of marriage) so unless you are 100% certain you can win your rape case victims don’t come forward because they themselves will be charged with non marital sex. Many women end up marrying their rapist.

So yes, how women dress can say something about the culture of a country but that absolutely does not mean more modest countries are safer for women than less modest ones. We can’t win either way.

What mixed messages?

Christian Brueckner?

Rae is more likely when a man is around

Responsibility for rape lies fully with the rapist.

I used to wear tiny skirts as a young teenager. I got the occasional lewd comment from men, nothing more. When I was assaulted, at 17, I was wearing an ankle-length full skirt and baggy jumper. It was the middle of the day. The man was drunk.

I still remember afterwards, going over what I should have done differently. But it wasn't my fault, and it wouldn't have been no matter what I was wearing.

I would also like to know what the “mixed messages” are?

If a woman was meeting a man for a date and she decided to dress sexily for that date does that mean any man who sees her in that outfit is being given the message that she wants to have sex with them? Every man on the train? Every man in the restaurant?

If she meets her date with the intention/hope of having a sexual encounter with him that evening but changes her mind…she feels unwell, something he says or does puts her off, she chances her mind for whatever reason…does she now need to have sex with him because she’s given him the “message” that she wants sex with her outfit? & now if she backs out it’s “mixed messages”?

Or can we just stop pretending that the concept of consent is difficult? It isn’t. Both parties have to enthusiastically agree to the sexual encounter at the beginning and throughout the entirety of the encounter. That’s it. There’s no decoding messages in outfits choices. There’s no “we had sex last week so why not now”. There’s no “but you sent me flirty texts earlier”.

You consent to sex in the moment using your words and physical responses. That’s it. Anything beforehand means nothing.

There is a big problem in our local secondary school with all the girls rolling up the tops of their skirts so they are shorter.
You can see their knickers quite often.
They don't wear tights anymore just knee high socks.
I am not saying short skirt allows for rape but I do think it attracts sexual attention.
And the attention, from what I see, is from dirty old men.

Also, I am going to get flamed for this.... but 90% of the girls at our local secondary are very overweight. So fat thighs bulging out under a mini skirt and fat knees rolling over knee high socks looks awful.

Not saying girls should cover up. Not saying fat people should cover up - suggesting there are ways to dress that look better!

Stranger rapes really are incredibly rare. If you want to look at the clothing most rape victims are wearing I’d imagine it is generally going to be standard nightwear. So maybe we should all avoid wearing PJ’ s and similar? Or maybe we just need to be lucky enough not to end up living with a rapist.

@LucyMonth This reminds me of The Handmaid's Tale discussion of freedom to versus freedom from with Aunt Lydia.

What was the monitor lizard wearing OP? When those men raped it. Then ate it. Someone can be wearing NOTHING, A NAPPY OR A NIQAB, nothing saves a victim nor provokes the rapist, because the rape responsibility equation is 100% the rapist.

OP, can you understand that we need to have a word in our language for necrophilia? Do you know why? CUZ RAPISTS, not because the corpse wore lipstick okay? There is not less rape where bodies are covered more, rape happens because of rapists, not victims. Thought this was obvious now in 2025 but clearly not.

I’ve been raped in a teeny tiny short dress and very low cut. I’ve been raped in school uniform. Conservative school uniform at that. I’ve been wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Joggers and a hoodie. My clothes didn’t get me raped. Neither did my actions. Or choices. What got me raped was being exposed to and knowing rapists. Throw in some conditioning since birth to always be agreeable and people please, those things are why I was raped 100s of times. The rapists and the conditioning made me vulnerable. My clothes had nothing to do with it.

Those girls were not targeted because of how they were dressed. They were targeted because society didn’t value them. They were let down my multiple agencies, schools families etc. those monsters targeted them because they knew no one was protecting them

The answer is chemical castration.

I’m not arguing we should all be walking round totally covered head to foot, of course that also says something about those societies.

I agree with you absolutely that ‘we can’t win’. I don’t understand why we can’t talk about what these choices do say and where they come from without being accused of saying women who dress provocatively deserve to be assaulted or that countries where women are covered are ‘safer’. It’s demonstrably untrue.

We don’t decide how to dress in a vacuum and these decisions DO come from somewhere. It can only be a good thing to stop and think about this and how it relates to how women are seen in society (whether that’s ours or Afghanistan), because ‘how society views women and sex’ impacts on male violence.

teenage schoolgirls rolling their skirts up? what a novel and modern phenomenon.

I don't think they rape gangs target white girls because of how they dress, many were in school uniform. It's because of racism, they see white girls as lesser because they are white and not Muslim.

What mixed messages?

The mixed messages in society.

Young people are encouraged on the one hand to dress provocatively, look a certain way, have surgery & be empowered etc. But society also judges that. Or have they stopped using a women's outfit and behaviour in defence arguments in sexual assault trials? Young boys are told not to objectify women but society does it constantly.

They target women & girls who seem vulnerable, so they can get away with abusing them. The way they dress does not have anything to do with that.

This is the reason why grooming gangs did not target middle-class girls, they targeted very vulnerable, underprivileged girls, often with learning difficulties or living in foster care. Same if you read about abuse in Catholic Church the victims often came from poorer families, without father and the priest interest in a child was seen as a wonderful opportunity and a blessing.

As a woman myself I became very aware from a young age that I got less "attention" & harassment in joggers & a sweat with my hair tied up vs something more revealing, heels etc. Rape is different though & often done by someone you know have contact with.

Why would you argue that? In those countries it would be impossible for most women to report a rape in most circumstances. Woman raped by her husband? Don’t be ridiculous, It’s his right. Woman raped by a relative? No one could believe her. Woman raped when out on her own? Absolutely her fault and she would get in trouble for being out without a male relative.
So, in a country where it is nearly impossible for a man to be convicted of rape, do you think it is more or less likely that men will rape?
You seem to have this idea of a rape scenario as a young woman dressed in revealing clothing out where she shouldn’t be. Women and girls are raped and sexually assaulted every day in their homes, schools, universities and workplaces, as well as when out and about socialising. Often repeatedly by the same person. Do you think if they’d only wear more sensible clothing their abusers would think twice?

And in a lot of those countries the victim would be actually penalized for having sexual relationship outside of marriage, if perpetrator was not her husband.

It’s funny you say that, because that passage had a huge impact on me when I read it at 16 and I think about it all the time even now.