How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

The UK is a fair and free country due mainly to its world class justice system that has been replicated all over the world.

Through colonialism.

We have literally thousands of laws that aim to deliver equality and protection. There are many more coming. We are refining I would say at this point.

As do many other countries.
Also I wouldn't be so confident in the British legal system considering the conviction rate of rape is so low. Something like 1%.

In the ‘safe’ countries you have listed, you know as well as I do that they are run by a cabal of men, there to ensure dominance, resources, priority will always be men. The legal systems are a sham, and women do not even have the most basic elements of protection. This is not safer for women, it is just a veneer, as everyone lives in fear. In Qatar this is extremely noticeable and palpable.

I will definitely agree that qatar is run by men but it is still a safe country for the vast majority of women.
Sometimes a country being run by men is a good thing just like if there was a country run by women. If the outcomes are good the outcomes are good.

Women are subjected to a vast spectrum of humiliations, one of those is being forced to wear certain things - or not wear certain things - like children. They are forced into complying with rules and regulations they did not agree to. Hidden and shrouded away from society like vermin, they are voiceless and subjected to the kind of violence I am unable to post on here.

I saw them forced to walk four paces behind their sons and husbands. Berated publicly and violently, and wearing full veils in 48c heat. Even their eyes were covered.

The vast majority of women aren't subjected to these bad things though.
And most Qatari women don't even cover their face. Let alone eyes Are you sure you have been there?
And you mention being covered in the hot weather. It's no different from women in Britain wearing next to nothing on a night out during winter in minus degrees weather

I've said Afghanistan is a horrible country for women.
Why is Afghanistan always the go to
Why not Kuwait which is a much safer and happier country for women than your country.
Why do you always go to the worst?

News flash we don't have a free and fair society.
We never have and we never will

Not with attitudes like yours.

Do you want me to post reports on Kuwait and Qatar or should we assume you're wrong?

Because it's the logical conclusion of your thinking.

But let's go with your example of Kuwait instead. It scores pretty poorly on most measures of gender equality. I certainly wouldn't want to live there as a woman.

I'm going to say something and this will be a bitter pill to swallow for some of you.
You are never going to remove patriachy ever or men harming women at the rates they do unfortunately. Not in the uk anyway or usa for that matter.
It's sad but I'm saying it for this reason.
I know what the game is with some of you. I've cottoned on to it now.
Many of you want to encourage debauchery because its your "feminist right" because "freedom" You want the freedom to engage in unhealthy lifestyle choices,that contribute and do so much damage to women and young girls because you should have the right to.
Then the bad things and damage that comes with it happens to women and young girls. Then you get upset with the outcomes that many of you have played a part in. So you are basically complaining about the things you have contributed to and continue to contribute to and yet you still expect different outcomes.
I hate to say it but in the uk things such as rape and sexual assault and the objectification of the female body will NEVER stop unless women in the uk stop dressing the way they do and stop hypersexualizing themselves .You might not like it but it's the truth. Again It is not the only reason why these things happen though. There's other factors But it is a big reason. You cannot push for the over sexualization of the female body and wonder why the female body is oversexualized. You cannot objectify yourself then wonder why men do it.
I shouldn't be walking down the street and everywhere I look I see school children walking around half naked with their skirt halfway up their backsides.
I shouldn't be walking down the highstreet on a Saturday night and seeing so many women dressed scantily clad like prostitutes. Did you not see the tiktok video I posted of thr girls looking like street walkers?
It's not healthy,it's very unhealthy and nothing will ever change.
We've seen this play out before through history.
Let's not forget the 60s and 70s.
We saw it in the 70s. Where unhealthy choices even paedophilia was encouraged and condoned and we got the same arguments,"freedom","stop controlling young women" and do you know what that left? Generational trauma and untold amounts of damage
This will probably be my last post on this thread tbh.

I hope it is your last post on Mumsnet. Your misogyny and victim blaming doesn't belong here. Shame on you.

Oh, and it isn't a bitter pill for any of us to swallow. We don't have to swallow it because it's misogynistic bullshit.

Absolutely 💯 this. You enjoy your pill, OP. We will pass.

@Hadmysay

You might not like it but it's the truth.

It's not, it's just your opinion. You haven't backed up anything you've said with facts.

This will probably be my last post on this thread tbh.

Shame.

Wow, this thread has certainly moved on since I last posted.

I apologise for some of my comments about feminists. They were probs a bit uncalled for given that this is the feminist section.

However, I do find a lot of the posters in this section to be pretty confrontational at times. Like, it sometimes feels that if you even consider a perspective that doesn't align with their views they'll jump down your throat and get all snarky.

I absolutely don't believe women are ever at fault for what they wear, but I am interested in the research showing how women in revealing clothes are objectified and how this might influence men's behaviour towards them. Irrespective of the morality element I think it's useful to understand the mentality of male offenders or potential rapists.

TikToks, Reddit posts and Wikipedia presented as evidence - you've got to laugh, really.

You will be sorely missed OP.

Now - it’s almost midday so I better get back to my slutty debauchery.

Who knows, I might even go short-sleeved on the school run 🤷🏽‍♀️.

Why is it so unthinkable to you that men - who are the ones who are the problem - should be encouraged or mandated to change their behaviour?

Why are you not haranguing men on websites? Why not campaign for a ban on misogynistic porn, stronger sentences for sexual abuse, for better education for boys, for it to be mandatory for asylum seekers and immigrants to attend and pass compulsory modules on U.K. law and culture and respect for women before they may live in the UK? Why not campaign for misogyny / catcalling to be an offence, for the sanction and in persistent cases, removal of boys from mainstream schools for
misogynistic abuse or showing lack of respect for female staff etc?

For you, it all seems to be about blaming women and restricting their freedom.

You’re wrong to think that no one here shares your view that bum or breast exposing outfits are tasteless and a bad idea, or that clothing doesn’t affect how you’re treated and perceived. Maybe it shouldn’t, but that’s not reality. I have certainly taught my kids this.

However that is a very different matter from your leap to blaming victims …. and apparent complete inability to countenance any suggestion that male behaviour can be changed or controlled. History tells us otherwise. Marital rape is now a crime. Women are free to pursue their education, freedoms and have rights over their own bodies and children. In the UK at least women are equal in law. Things can and do change - but only if we make them.

The door is that way - ciao! I think you have successfully convinced me that short skirts are a good thing for society after all! 😊

It seems the OP doesn’t have a very good grasp of reality, as they don’t know the basic fact that rates of Sexal assault and rape are actually highest in countries where women dress “modestly” such as India and many African countries.

also I have to say that I’ve been pretty slutty in my twenties, I had a lot of fun and came to 0 harm. Just use a condom and sleeping around will do you no harm. Whereas my sister who married at 23 to a strictly religious man (Christian) ended up in a toxic and controlling marriage with a husband who, oh the irony, on one occasion said he wished they lived in Dubai or a similarly strict Muslim country as he found the idea of women covering up and only showing their hair to their “man” so sexy. yuk. In the end she divorced him.

now I’m more or less happily married to the same man for 15 years and guess what? If we end up not getting along anymore I’ll divorce him too - another unacceptable thing for women to do in your view likely.

wearing a short skirt isn’t objectifying yourself. You can’t objectify yourself. Only someone else can do that to you.

also what’s seen as “inappropriate” is different in different cultures and ages. In India showing a bit of belly is fine but ankles is not. In the 17rh century women in Europe would wear very low cut dresses showing their boobs but showing legs was not okay. And so on.

If you’ve ever been to a boys school or girls school you’ll know how bad they are for an accurate sense of reality and healthy relations with the opposite sex.

also I have to say that I’ve been pretty slutty in my twenties, I had a lot of fun and came to 0 harm. Just use a condom and sleeping around will do you no harm

Your the exception not the rule. So that means very little to me.
The evidence is there. That type of lifestyle is unhealthy for women.
This is a psychologist by the way who knows her stuff

If the truth is being called victim blaming call me a victim blamer.
You will never get men to change and definitely not by walking around half naked and objectifying yourself

Yet It ranks pretty high on quality of living and happiness.

Watch these please then maybe you will see where I am coming from

No thanks. I can't believe you've come back for more.

It's better than what others have posted. All many have done have said " we should be allowed to walk around half naked if we want" , "men should change" . I mean yes no shit they should but they wont. Especially not if you keep giving them what they want 😂.
It reminds of a comment I saw one time on a video about the damage of female promiscuity and it said something along the lines of "I want to know what the feminists of the 60s were thinking when they decided to combat misogyny and sexism by giving the same misogynistic and sexist men more access to their bodies"

Again this is the problem your not even willing to learn. You don't listen,you don't think,you don't learn this is why we are stuck