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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:37

I've read your posts with an open mind but all I see is the utter navel-gazing self-absorption. The complete lack of empathy for actual women. I am willing to accept you as a transwoman and encourage you to fight for third spaces. I will never accept you are a woman in the way my sisters and I are women. Perform femininity however you wish but I will always see you as 'man performing femininity'.

I guarantee you don't pass as well as you think you do. Historically women tolerated men like you in our spaces because we pitied you and you were a rarity. We recognised your dilemma. Sadly women have been so abused by men in the name of 'trans inclusion' that it will take years to undo the damage. The good will is gone. Women were always your allies but when 'your' community acted with standard male aggression and entitlement we saw you as oppressors just like the other men.

SpidersAreShitheads · 24/04/2025 07:38

OP says he's left the thread because the mean women of Mumsnet weren't receptive to his early morning lecture.

Honestly, I am just so DONE with being scolded by men and tiptoeing round their feelings when it's always, fucking always, about them.

Making ridiculous claims about being oppressed by the patriarchy as much as women is so offensive I can't even find the words.

unsync · 24/04/2025 07:38

Why are women always expected to sort out the shit and chaos that men create? Why is this now our responsibility? You're too late. You can thank your fellow men for this. You can all fuck off with the #bekind nonsense too. Where were you with that over the past ten years?

No. Take it up with the men, we've got enough to do. This is the ultimate in male privilege and you don't even see it.

InfoSecInTheCity · 24/04/2025 07:38

All of the concessions and compromises that you want need to be made by Women. You haven’t said for example: I think it’s reasonable to say that Trans people need to accept that they can not take part in competitive sports and will need to agree that if they want to it will need to be in the corrected category or open options.

You don’t suggest that Trans people should campaign for gender neutral third spaces and commit to using them.

I’m your idea of reasonable discussion is you telling us how you feel, what you want and why we should give it to you.

can you really not see that?

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 07:39

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:36

Okay actually thank you for actually giving a decent reply!

' If there is a female brain type then surely one of its characteristics is that it is predisposed to non-violent, conciliatory behaviour due to biological role of child-rearing.' I suppose on average...maybe? I mean it is first of all worth mentioning although there is sex differences in the brain there is also large and vast individual differences espesically through time and life.

I think your question here really points to the fact that we are still learning. When I said 'female brain' I meant this anatomically speaking and things like responses and so on. Speaking about larger topics and more complicated behaviour the answer could be, I dont know? I mean I know people have called me a man here but I did just say I didnt know. Bad joke. Anyway

Also I think that transgender probably have fairly unique brains and ive seen studies where thats unrelated to sex differences but other parts of the brain. We dont really know what that could mean other than that the brain could actually be gender diverse beyond a binary. It could also be a reason why autism is prevelant in Transgender people. Though I am very neurotypical so maybe thats why im here now? Maybe.

I think also, knowing what I know about transgender people, we arent really a monolith. I am very binary conforming. I believe deeply in medical transition. I, quite frankly, despite what some rather unpleasant people seemed to have said here, am very female. I have often been called the most cis trans woman that they know.

On the other hand, others are...less like that? I must admit I dont have too much communication with other transgender people. Im just a girl living her life basically. Im a girl who happens to be trans and not a transgender person who happens to be a girl. But yes, some transgender women are much less passing and can be more difficult to communicate with.

I also think that while you cite incidents of bad behaviour it is worth nothing that hate crimes against trangender people rose by 186 percent last year. So most of them are scared. Hell im scared and Im one of the most safe. This is why I felt I had to do this today and why im going to try things like this more often. I just dont feel this situation is sustainable you know?

But to answer your final question, speaking from myself, what makes me what I am is the peace estrogen brought me that testosterone never could. I couldnlt process my mind before and I cant really explain it that well other than it was like the wrong fuel? Id do honestly anything to be able to be like you and have the right anatomy to have my own children. Its what ive always wanted and I feel like I let my boyfriend down all the time because I cant give him that. And I guess thats why it hurts when someone doesnt see me. I cant fundementally prove on every level why my brain is why it is no one can. All I know is if I ever try to be anything different than I am then my whole world falls apart.

I hope this helps. Ive said alot of things, Im sorry.

But all the evidence shows that men have hormonal changes to become more "nurturing" when they have children, too.

Stepfordian · 24/04/2025 07:39

Nope. You’re not femal, you’re not a woman, you don’t have a vagina or a pink ladee-brain.

The only coherent position is that women are adult human females, no-one can see the structure of your brain in day to day life, there is no compromise to be had. If someone broke into your house and said I feel like I should live here, were the same you and I and I want to live here and sleep in your bed would you compromise and let them sleep on your sofa?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:40

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:52

Um yeah. It hasnt.
I have read the studies and they are pretty robust to be fair.

Out of interest, have you ever had your brain scanned to see whether it looks female or male?

HermioneWeasley · 24/04/2025 07:40

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:03

Exactly. But yet, Im here and I had the courage to do it all the same. And we all need that courage. We really do. Im tired of hatred.

Women saying “no” is not hate

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 07:40

Girl.

Really?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/04/2025 07:41

Bleeding nora what a load of mansplaining!!

You think you’re the first TW to come on here claiming to be reasonable & that you understand how women feel and you just want to find a way forward? News flash you’re not! We’ve seen all this before and it always goes the same way. Long verbose posts about why you’re different and that women totally see you as female and surely we can all be reasonable ie just give you what you want. When we say no then we get more verbosity about how unreasonable we are and how sad it makes you. The answer is still no. women are not your support humans, not on here and not in real life

PremiumD · 24/04/2025 07:41

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:08

I think the real issue with this, as it often is the case, is that even if you dont see me as a woman im still not a man. So relating Sex crimes done by men onto women either makes me a victim myself or not part of it.

I dont understand all this exclusion. Its the one thing I can never understand. I understand the fear to be fair though. I think I have answered the point of 'males entering into the spaces' fairly well initially and its obviously why I made concilliations around certain trans rights targets and why I think they dont understand the sensitvities that sorround womens history and experience enough.

Gently, I think you would understand if you were a woman. I’m so sorry you feel the way you do, I genuinely have empathy for you, but it doesn’t make you a woman.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:41

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:19

I mean I dont feel that the erasure of the Trasgender victims of the Haulocaust is in fitting with decent soicety. These people lived as who they were and died for it and even if it makes your perspective more awkward I will continue to try to honour thier memory.

You cannot name a single one of those victims.

You know that most if not all of the 6 million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust have been identified, right?

The Nazis kept meticulous records.

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 07:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:40

Out of interest, have you ever had your brain scanned to see whether it looks female or male?

I've had my brain scanned. Perhaps I could compare images with @FairAdvocate ....

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:42

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 07:34

What really upsets me is that insisting I have a certain type of brain, different from a "male" brain, is entirely smashing to pieces my entire experience of my self, my sense of self, my identity. You would think a trans person would understand and empathise how distressing and traumatic this can be for women, to be told that their entire knowledge and sense of their core self is false. How traumatising it is to tell us that not only are our sense of selves wrong, i.e. we are wromg to the very core of our beings, but that we have to accept that the basis of centuries of horrifying oppression, which continues to this day across the world, is a fact grounded in science.

Can you not see how terrifying that is? How, if your claims to have such horrifying and dangerous new scientific discoveries are true, it's absolutely vital and urgent that we immediately bring in extra protections in law to preserve all the basic rights women have struggled to gain?

Because you're making a claim so dangerous and frightening in its consequences, if we were to believe it (where is this evidence of our "different" othered brains, our mysteriously somehow Other minds?) then we actually need legislatevextra protections fast.

I mean first of all I take your distress at this very seriously.

I dont think you have a certain type of brain. You as an individual matter. I cant underline that more than enough. There are sex differences in brain anatomy. But that doesnt make you or me an 'other'. I mean maybe it makes me an 'other' I guess we are still trying to figure that one out.
But I dont subscribe that to be female is to be other or second.
My most favorite piece of writing is Simone De Beauvoirs The Second Sex as I find her writing so profound and beautiful and my teacher that I had introduced me to her and he explained her writing to me and ive been in love with it ever since.
There is nothing false about you and there never will be.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:42

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 07:41

I've had my brain scanned. Perhaps I could compare images with @FairAdvocate ....

Would love to 😅

OP posts:
SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:43

Also I think that transgender probably have fairly unique brains and ive seen studies where thats unrelated to sex differences but other parts of the brain. We dont really know what that could mean other than that the brain could actually be gender diverse beyond a binary. It could also be a reason why autism is prevelant in Transgender people. Though I am very neurotypical so maybe thats why im here now? Maybe.

We all have unique brains. We are all unique beings. You are likely not 'neurotypical' in the way you think you are. It could be argued that a gay man trying to look like a woman is the ultimate masking behaviour. Neurodiversity and gender dysphoria is common but usually resolves post puberty. I experienced it myself for a couple of years aged 12-14 and I am ND.

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 07:44

I think you're confusing cultural, societal and extremely oppressive and disturbing imposed, imaginary differences for biological ones.

No woman I know has ever felt naturally "conciliatory" or "nurturing" and all have felt having a baby to be a completely alien new and frightening experience. We no longer have a community of people teaching us our to look after babies, and without that we now know for sure it in no way comes naturally. These things are taught and learned.

Any brain difference might be hormonal changes during pregnancy, which happen in expectant fathers also.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:44

MrsJamin · 24/04/2025 06:54

We can't just compromise here @FairAdvocate because it's like someone comes into your house, steals your stuff and then wants to strike a deal on divvying it up or selling it back. It wasn't yours to begin with: we want the words "women" and "female" back. They were never yours to have and you stole them. Therefore the peaceful negotiation of how to share these terms are not going your way because we just want them back and for you to go on your merry way. There is no "us" - we have nothing in common with you.

Wow. Yes. This is the perfect analogy.

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 07:44

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:41

You cannot name a single one of those victims.

You know that most if not all of the 6 million Jews who were killed in the Holocaust have been identified, right?

The Nazis kept meticulous records.

This. No-one has been "erased". A visit to any of the camps or other Holocaust museums, reading any book and accounts would also confirm it. I worked with people who collated information, using victim accounts and Nazi records. You are right - those records held by the Nazis were absolutely meticulous.

HermioneWeasley · 24/04/2025 07:45

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:12

So this was Cis lesbians. So in your words female homosexuals. I mean you can easily look this up? Its been the case for years.

“Cis” lesbians is a deeply offensive phrase because it implies the existence of “trans lesbians” - ie straight men.

that you support the idea of “male lesbians” tells me you are deeply homophobic

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:45

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:43

Also I think that transgender probably have fairly unique brains and ive seen studies where thats unrelated to sex differences but other parts of the brain. We dont really know what that could mean other than that the brain could actually be gender diverse beyond a binary. It could also be a reason why autism is prevelant in Transgender people. Though I am very neurotypical so maybe thats why im here now? Maybe.

We all have unique brains. We are all unique beings. You are likely not 'neurotypical' in the way you think you are. It could be argued that a gay man trying to look like a woman is the ultimate masking behaviour. Neurodiversity and gender dysphoria is common but usually resolves post puberty. I experienced it myself for a couple of years aged 12-14 and I am ND.

Yeah sure. I agree with that to an extent.
But I have been psycholoigcally asssed and scored a 1 which is the lowest on the autism scale. So idk, probably not?

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:46

PremiumD · 24/04/2025 07:41

Gently, I think you would understand if you were a woman. I’m so sorry you feel the way you do, I genuinely have empathy for you, but it doesn’t make you a woman.

I think this is it.

It is the greatest irony that the trans women who come across most like women are the ones who understand that they are male and stay out of women's spaces. They have enough empathy for women to understand that there are some boundaries they should not cross.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:47

HermioneWeasley · 24/04/2025 07:45

“Cis” lesbians is a deeply offensive phrase because it implies the existence of “trans lesbians” - ie straight men.

that you support the idea of “male lesbians” tells me you are deeply homophobic

I mean, I do think transgender people can be lesbians.
I also see myself in a heterosexual relationship with a man.
A lovely man by the way.
Hes straight. Do you not think...its actually just more rude and offensive to call him gay tho?

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SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:47

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:45

Yeah sure. I agree with that to an extent.
But I have been psycholoigcally asssed and scored a 1 which is the lowest on the autism scale. So idk, probably not?

I have ADHD not autism.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:46

I think this is it.

It is the greatest irony that the trans women who come across most like women are the ones who understand that they are male and stay out of women's spaces. They have enough empathy for women to understand that there are some boundaries they should not cross.

'It is the greatest irony that the trans women who come across most like women are the ones who understand that they are male and stay out of women's spaces. They have enough empathy for women to understand that there are some boundaries they should not cross.'

I mean me as an example disprove that tho.

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