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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:48

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:47

I mean, I do think transgender people can be lesbians.
I also see myself in a heterosexual relationship with a man.
A lovely man by the way.
Hes straight. Do you not think...its actually just more rude and offensive to call him gay tho?

You are in a same sex relationship. What's wrong with acknowledging that?

I don't think it is offensive to call someone gay because gay is not an insult.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:49

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:47

I have ADHD not autism.

Oh cool, can you tell me more about how that affects your attention? Sorry, I know its off topic but Im genuinely interested.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:48

You are in a same sex relationship. What's wrong with acknowledging that?

I don't think it is offensive to call someone gay because gay is not an insult.

sigh okay

OP posts:
EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 07:50

How do you think it would work on a practical level to say that some trans people could access opposite-sex spaces, but not others?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:50

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:37

I've read your posts with an open mind but all I see is the utter navel-gazing self-absorption. The complete lack of empathy for actual women. I am willing to accept you as a transwoman and encourage you to fight for third spaces. I will never accept you are a woman in the way my sisters and I are women. Perform femininity however you wish but I will always see you as 'man performing femininity'.

I guarantee you don't pass as well as you think you do. Historically women tolerated men like you in our spaces because we pitied you and you were a rarity. We recognised your dilemma. Sadly women have been so abused by men in the name of 'trans inclusion' that it will take years to undo the damage. The good will is gone. Women were always your allies but when 'your' community acted with standard male aggression and entitlement we saw you as oppressors just like the other men.

I mean its hard to take your analysis of me seriously when you are the one attacking me and not the other way around, do you see the issue?

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:51

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:49

sigh okay

I really do think that two people in a same sex relationship calling themselves a straight couple on the grounds that one of them has transitioned just smacks of internalised homophobia.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:51

SpidersAreShitheads · 24/04/2025 07:38

OP says he's left the thread because the mean women of Mumsnet weren't receptive to his early morning lecture.

Honestly, I am just so DONE with being scolded by men and tiptoeing round their feelings when it's always, fucking always, about them.

Making ridiculous claims about being oppressed by the patriarchy as much as women is so offensive I can't even find the words.

No Im still here god help me please PLEASE, but thanks for the avoidable misgender. Totally keeping things decent and civil.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:51

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:50

I mean its hard to take your analysis of me seriously when you are the one attacking me and not the other way around, do you see the issue?

Nobody is attacking you. We are defending our own right to exist.

Lovelysummerdays · 24/04/2025 07:52

I read your post and whilst I understand that you may wish to be seen as a woman my belief is thst you are a biological male and there’s nothing you can do to change that.

You should be protected from abuse and discrimination and you are by the equality act. I’d agree there has been overstep in recent years, I think I’m years gone by someone who had gone full reassignment would of been largely accepted. The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.

There are far more self contained unisex options now. I’d imagine unless you are prison bound or a professional athlete single sex spaces womt actually hsvd a massive affect on day today life.

blueleavesgreensky · 24/04/2025 07:52

I as a woman will never understand or have lived your experience. I will never know or understand the difficulties, fears, trauma and relief you feel as a man who has transformed into a trans woman.
likewise you will never understand or have live the experience of having been born and grown up as a female.

I welcome you to the world as a trans woman. I will advocate for you to not be discriminated against in all areas of life where you being a trans woman does not require women to make space for you; sports, bathrooms, policy positions relating to women, artistic or intellectual competitions. Anything created for and designed for women. These spaces are for women. Not men. Not transmen. Not trans women. Just women.

if you are going for a job as a bus driver or an HMRC tax accountant or a lighting technician or any other thing that is not gender defined I will fight for your acceptance and against discrimination

But I will fight even harder to maintain that you are a trans woman not a women. You will not take that from me and my sisters. Why do trans people struggle with and deny themselves as the reality of what they are? You ARE a trans woman. Why is it so abhorrent that you claim your space in society as a trans woman. Why is trans woman degrading to you when it is what you are. And there is nothing wrong with being a trans woman.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:51

I really do think that two people in a same sex relationship calling themselves a straight couple on the grounds that one of them has transitioned just smacks of internalised homophobia.

I genuinely just feel sorry for you.
Im trying not to because Im sure you are so clever but how did you get into all of this? Like rhetoric aside? A personal experience or?

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:53

blueleavesgreensky · 24/04/2025 07:52

I as a woman will never understand or have lived your experience. I will never know or understand the difficulties, fears, trauma and relief you feel as a man who has transformed into a trans woman.
likewise you will never understand or have live the experience of having been born and grown up as a female.

I welcome you to the world as a trans woman. I will advocate for you to not be discriminated against in all areas of life where you being a trans woman does not require women to make space for you; sports, bathrooms, policy positions relating to women, artistic or intellectual competitions. Anything created for and designed for women. These spaces are for women. Not men. Not transmen. Not trans women. Just women.

if you are going for a job as a bus driver or an HMRC tax accountant or a lighting technician or any other thing that is not gender defined I will fight for your acceptance and against discrimination

But I will fight even harder to maintain that you are a trans woman not a women. You will not take that from me and my sisters. Why do trans people struggle with and deny themselves as the reality of what they are? You ARE a trans woman. Why is it so abhorrent that you claim your space in society as a trans woman. Why is trans woman degrading to you when it is what you are. And there is nothing wrong with being a trans woman.

'I will advocate for you to not be discriminated against in all areas of life where you being a trans woman does not require women to make space for you; sports, bathrooms, policy positions relating to women, artistic or intellectual competitions.' Yeah I mean, do you see how the start conflicts with the end?

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:55

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:52

I genuinely just feel sorry for you.
Im trying not to because Im sure you are so clever but how did you get into all of this? Like rhetoric aside? A personal experience or?

Well I feel sorry for you.

But not sorry enough to agree that we should change our language and open up our spaces to accommodate you.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:56

Lovelysummerdays · 24/04/2025 07:52

I read your post and whilst I understand that you may wish to be seen as a woman my belief is thst you are a biological male and there’s nothing you can do to change that.

You should be protected from abuse and discrimination and you are by the equality act. I’d agree there has been overstep in recent years, I think I’m years gone by someone who had gone full reassignment would of been largely accepted. The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.

There are far more self contained unisex options now. I’d imagine unless you are prison bound or a professional athlete single sex spaces womt actually hsvd a massive affect on day today life.

'The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.'
I mean I dont disagree with that. I know you dont think so but I am a woman so yes I understand that this isnt a good precedent.
Again, I dont really care what peoples personal beleifs are but I think that we do need to have a good discussion about how to intergrate properly and end this. As for my biological maleness, if it exists it isnt working very well!

OP posts:
BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 07:56

What does it mean to be a woman, from your perspective? Like what is it that makes you feel your brain is more female and the way you feel is more female?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:58

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:56

'The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.'
I mean I dont disagree with that. I know you dont think so but I am a woman so yes I understand that this isnt a good precedent.
Again, I dont really care what peoples personal beleifs are but I think that we do need to have a good discussion about how to intergrate properly and end this. As for my biological maleness, if it exists it isnt working very well!

It's so offensive when you call yourself a woman and you've had this explained to you so many times now. Please stop doing it.

Make up a new word for what you are which does not include the word "woman".

Stop stealing our words.

The words "women" and "female" describe us, not you.

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:58

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:50

I mean its hard to take your analysis of me seriously when you are the one attacking me and not the other way around, do you see the issue?

Disagreeing with you is not 'an attack'. To be honest I find gender ideology an attack on reality and common sense but I don't go round labelling it 'an attack'. I find it interesting how 'attacked' trans people can feel when the rest of the world doesn't uphold their inner self-perception. It would be like me having a meltdown because people don't see me as a 20 year old anymore.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:58

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:55

Well I feel sorry for you.

But not sorry enough to agree that we should change our language and open up our spaces to accommodate you.

No but honestly, how did you get into this? im genuinely curious? I did also try to reply to the me saying I cant name any Haulocause victims but it didnt like it. Ill try again.

The Nazi state reserved its worst violence for trans women. In particular, women who came to the attention of police as they continued to live publicly as women after 1933 were in danger. So were transgender women who sold sex. These trans women kept living as women because the alternative—being forced to live as a man—was unbearable, something Nunn shows in R.'s case.Footnote28 One such woman was H. Bode of Hamburg, who often went out in public dressed as a woman, dated men, and had previously held a transvestite certificate. Over the Nazi period, she racked up convictions under §360 and §175. Hamburg officials finally sent her to Buchenwald, where she died in 1943.Footnote29 (I believe Dr. Zinn refers to this case in his Gutachten. Bode was arrested after a night out in Hamburg with her aunt. I want to note that Dr. Zinn does not report the outcome. Bode was murdered. It is clear from the file that her “transvestitism” played a large role in that murder. On this see also Herrn, who reports her death.Footnote30

In 1933, Essen police withdrew Toni Simon's permit and told her to stop wearing women's clothing. She fled town. Later, she came back, and repeatedly got into trouble—insulting police officers, cavorting with known homosexuals, and breaking a law against anti-regime statements (the Heimtückegesetz), for which she served a year in prison. The final document in her file recommends sending her to a concentration camp. Though police had many reasons to deem Simon a threat to Nazi society, the fact that she was a “pronounced transvestite” was among the central ones.Footnote31

Liddy Bacroff of Hamburg got a transvestite pass in 1928. She made her living selling sex to male clients. They understood her to be a woman. After 1933, she repeatedly ran into trouble with police. According to what police wrote in her file, she was “fundamentally a transvestite.” That, along with sex work, made her a “morals criminal of the worst sort” who “must therefore be ausgeschaltet (eliminated) from the Volksgemeinschaft (people's community).”Footnote32 Bacroff was sent to Mauthausten and died there in 1943.

Transgender Life and Persecution under the Nazi State: Gutachten on the Vollbrecht Case | Central European History | Cambridge Core

Transgender Life and Persecution under the Nazi State: Gutachten on the Vollbrecht Case - Volume 56 Issue 4

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/transgender-life-and-persecution-under-the-nazi-state-gutachten-on-the-vollbrecht-case/0779A24B130C4F0CA64DB639FA6DBF46#fn29

OP posts:
BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 07:58

To me being a woman is about periods and the menopause and how that affects not just your body but your behaviours. Motherhood but also non-motherhood and the very gender-specific realities you have to deal with as a consequence of either. The very real fear of being physically overpowered by even the weakest of males. Unequal pay and opportunities.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 24/04/2025 07:59

‘Pool is another one. Darts. I think with Chess all we are admitting there is that men are smarter than us for X reason and that needs to stop.’

Well, you lost me there! Pool ( competitive pool) : those blokes have a longer reach than their female opponents, so they have an inbuilt advantage. Darts: more physical force , probably better eye / hand coordination ( again, professional players)

Chess…😹😹😹, ‘men’ may be ‘smarter’ than you , matey, but they are not ‘smarter’ as a sex than me, or many other women of Ricky’s ‘old fashioned sort’. Let’s have another run at that : ‘other men are smarter than me, as I have just demonstrated by this post.’

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:59

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 07:58

Disagreeing with you is not 'an attack'. To be honest I find gender ideology an attack on reality and common sense but I don't go round labelling it 'an attack'. I find it interesting how 'attacked' trans people can feel when the rest of the world doesn't uphold their inner self-perception. It would be like me having a meltdown because people don't see me as a 20 year old anymore.

I think its more when you call someone self absored and go on a rant about them honestly, have I done that to you even once?

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:00

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 24/04/2025 07:59

‘Pool is another one. Darts. I think with Chess all we are admitting there is that men are smarter than us for X reason and that needs to stop.’

Well, you lost me there! Pool ( competitive pool) : those blokes have a longer reach than their female opponents, so they have an inbuilt advantage. Darts: more physical force , probably better eye / hand coordination ( again, professional players)

Chess…😹😹😹, ‘men’ may be ‘smarter’ than you , matey, but they are not ‘smarter’ as a sex than me, or many other women of Ricky’s ‘old fashioned sort’. Let’s have another run at that : ‘other men are smarter than me, as I have just demonstrated by this post.’

So I looked at this and I just thouught alrighty then.
So is chess mixed or not?
Cause men arent smarter than me because they are men.
SURELY WE CAN ALL AGREE ON THAT ONE 😅

OP posts:
BarbieBrightSide · 24/04/2025 08:01

I think this is why passing is important

https://rumble.com/v2m7p5y-09-what-can-we-do.html

At about 3.55

I don't doubt that this man felt he 'passed'
Reducing this down to how masculine or feminine someone looks is not the way to go

09 What can we do

This is the original RUMBLE #AdultHumanFemale channel and home of Kellie-Jay Keen aka Posie Parker. If you would like to donate to help support us, click here ⇨ https://www.standingforwomen.com/letwom

https://rumble.com/v2m7p5y-09-what-can-we-do.html

Lovelysummerdays · 24/04/2025 08:03

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:56

'The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.'
I mean I dont disagree with that. I know you dont think so but I am a woman so yes I understand that this isnt a good precedent.
Again, I dont really care what peoples personal beleifs are but I think that we do need to have a good discussion about how to intergrate properly and end this. As for my biological maleness, if it exists it isnt working very well!

We don’t need to have a discussion on how to integrate. Single sex spaces are for biological women. The law has clarified this. Use the space for your sex or alternative unisex provisions.

I do understand you do t care what my personal beliefs are. I give equal weight to your personal belief that you are a woman. This is why we are governed by laws rather than beliefs or feelings.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 08:03

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:58

No but honestly, how did you get into this? im genuinely curious? I did also try to reply to the me saying I cant name any Haulocause victims but it didnt like it. Ill try again.

The Nazi state reserved its worst violence for trans women. In particular, women who came to the attention of police as they continued to live publicly as women after 1933 were in danger. So were transgender women who sold sex. These trans women kept living as women because the alternative—being forced to live as a man—was unbearable, something Nunn shows in R.'s case.Footnote28 One such woman was H. Bode of Hamburg, who often went out in public dressed as a woman, dated men, and had previously held a transvestite certificate. Over the Nazi period, she racked up convictions under §360 and §175. Hamburg officials finally sent her to Buchenwald, where she died in 1943.Footnote29 (I believe Dr. Zinn refers to this case in his Gutachten. Bode was arrested after a night out in Hamburg with her aunt. I want to note that Dr. Zinn does not report the outcome. Bode was murdered. It is clear from the file that her “transvestitism” played a large role in that murder. On this see also Herrn, who reports her death.Footnote30

In 1933, Essen police withdrew Toni Simon's permit and told her to stop wearing women's clothing. She fled town. Later, she came back, and repeatedly got into trouble—insulting police officers, cavorting with known homosexuals, and breaking a law against anti-regime statements (the Heimtückegesetz), for which she served a year in prison. The final document in her file recommends sending her to a concentration camp. Though police had many reasons to deem Simon a threat to Nazi society, the fact that she was a “pronounced transvestite” was among the central ones.Footnote31

Liddy Bacroff of Hamburg got a transvestite pass in 1928. She made her living selling sex to male clients. They understood her to be a woman. After 1933, she repeatedly ran into trouble with police. According to what police wrote in her file, she was “fundamentally a transvestite.” That, along with sex work, made her a “morals criminal of the worst sort” who “must therefore be ausgeschaltet (eliminated) from the Volksgemeinschaft (people's community).”Footnote32 Bacroff was sent to Mauthausten and died there in 1943.

Oh my God, just STOP.

Six million Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust, many of them children. Jewish women gave birth in concentration camps and had their newborn babies ripped from their arms and drowned in front of them.

And yet the Nazis "reserved their worst violence for trans women", did they? And you believe this despite the fact that you cannot name a single victim who was neither homosexual nor Jewish?

I don't have the words to express how disgusted I am that you would make such a claim.

This is one of the very most offensive things about the transgender movement, the way you claim other people's oppression and wear it like a garment. The way they claim that trans people were front and centre of the gay rights movement, the most persecuted during the Holocaust, that you experience misogyny and what's more, you experience worse misogyny than women do.

Do you have no shame?

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