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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:39

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:38

I think many who’ve had significant MH needs would describe it as being on the opposite side to their body, not being in agreement with it. That’s what dysmorphia is.

So "cis" in actual fact means a person who does not have a mental disorder or paraphilia which makes them want to be the opposite sex.

Why do we all need to be defined by not having either of those two specific things?

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:40

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:34

Its in reference to the 'same side' between mental/emotional/psychological and physical. If they are both 'the same side' it's cis. If they're 'on opposite sides' it's trans.

Hmm, making up definitions of words on the fly doesn’t really work does it? That’s even less clear than before.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:39

It doesn’t mean that their mental state defines the reality for everyone else though @SleeplessInWherever

It doesn’t.

But we were talking about language, and if cis means being with your body and trans means disagreeing with it, being opposite to it - that makes sense if you consider body dysmorphia to be real.

As in, I’m not offended by being referred to as not having body dysmorphia, because I don’t.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:42

If anything, I think that the words "trans" and "cis" describe biological sex.

Cis woman = female woman
Trans woman = male woman
Cis man = male man
Trans man = female man

I don't personally believe there is any such thing as a male woman or a female man, but it would be less confusing to use these words because the words "cis" and "trans" describe opposite things depending on whether they prefix the word "woman" or "man".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:42

That would only work if I believed that all the men claiming to be women actually had body dysmorphia, which I certainly do not @SleeplessInWherever

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:42

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:41

It doesn’t.

But we were talking about language, and if cis means being with your body and trans means disagreeing with it, being opposite to it - that makes sense if you consider body dysmorphia to be real.

As in, I’m not offended by being referred to as not having body dysmorphia, because I don’t.

Do you also describe yourself as not diabetic, not Chinese and not a cat person? (Assuming you are not any of these things.)

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:43

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 10:29

Well strictly speaking many men like their own single sex spaces too

and many men believe that they show respect for women by using single sex spaces correctly - they don’t see it as an assumption that they are bad sex pests - they see that by using single sex spaces they demonstrate that they are being good and well behaved.

the male point of view isn’t always “ single sex spaces mean women judge us to be hateful people “ at all

from conversations with males many of whom find the transgender position quite uncomfortable and off.

Yes, my poor FiL literally nearly had another heart attack (he’s already had several) when faced with an unexpected woman in the toilets. DS hates mixed sex toilets at school as well.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:42

That would only work if I believed that all the men claiming to be women actually had body dysmorphia, which I certainly do not @SleeplessInWherever

This is a good point.

By way of analogy, the word belle-mère in French means both mother-in-law and stepmother. So if someone uses this word when describing a family event, it may not be clear whether the person they are talking about is their spouse's mother or their father's wife. I don't understand why they don't have different words for these two things, as we do in English.

Similarly, it would be helpful to have different words for a male person with gender dysphoria and a male person with autogynephilia.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:42

Do you also describe yourself as not diabetic, not Chinese and not a cat person? (Assuming you are not any of these things.)

What a tangle they get into when trying to subvert language and basic biological concepts to shoehorn men into the woman category.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:46

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:45

What a tangle they get into when trying to subvert language and basic biological concepts to shoehorn men into the woman category.

Read my other posts. I’ve never said TWAW.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:47

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:35

What mental/emotional/psychological characteristics are on the "same side" as having a female reproductive system?

Just bumping this so it doesn't get missed.

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:47

So if you do t believe TWAW, @SleeplessInWherever, why do yoi think they belong in women’s spaces?

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:42

Do you also describe yourself as not diabetic, not Chinese and not a cat person? (Assuming you are not any of these things.)

Definitely not a cat person, much prefer dogs!

No, because I’m not bothered about labelling myself as anything.

But if someone else rightly pointed out I’m not a cat person, my response wouldn’t be “how dare you!” Because… I’m not.

I refer to myself as a woman, but don’t feel any way about others using cis as a description, because I am. By nature of not being the opposite.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:48

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:47

So if you do t believe TWAW, @SleeplessInWherever, why do yoi think they belong in women’s spaces?

I think it is purely because she feels sorry for them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:49

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:21

Okay, and SSS are all about women’s validation. It cuts both ways.

I’ve got no issue with women seeking validation in whatever way they need or see fit, but I don’t see understand how we can then be shocked when other people ask for it.

I personally don’t need the validation of this group, if I did I wouldn’t be here, but someone else misguidedly seeking it shouldn’t be met with surprise - what else is the legal debate and discussion if it’s not women looking for (now gained) validation of their concerns.

I’d like to unpack this comment a bit more if you are ok with that, @SleeplessInWherever- what do you actually mean? Women are women and the spaces are for us to use for our own privacy and dignity. How is that in any sense the same as a man using them because he “identifies as a woman” and believes that using them is his right, and validates his (false) claim?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 10:49

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:15

I don't see how they've been 'stomping in' and 'demanding' things - they've always said it's their own understanding as a transwoman, and they haven't tried to tell ciswomen how to feel.

I am an ally to women and girls as I am a ciswoman. But I can also be an ally to transwomen and see that by transwomen living their lives, they aren't taking any of my rights away.

The OP told us we must not use 'he' pronouns, and we must not use the term Trans Identified Males, without even asking us. That, is demanding.

By a male being in a female only single sex space where women and girls are vulnerable, that is taking our rights away.

Not to mention taking the sporting scholarships, medals and awards of girls, and listing male crimes as female crimes.

This here, is how having males identify into women's oppression and spaces affects us:

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 10:50

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:21

Okay, and SSS are all about women’s validation. It cuts both ways.

I’ve got no issue with women seeking validation in whatever way they need or see fit, but I don’t see understand how we can then be shocked when other people ask for it.

I personally don’t need the validation of this group, if I did I wouldn’t be here, but someone else misguidedly seeking it shouldn’t be met with surprise - what else is the legal debate and discussion if it’s not women looking for (now gained) validation of their concerns.

Not true at all, we don't seek 'validation' as women, we seek safety, privacy and dignity.

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:51

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 10:49

The OP told us we must not use 'he' pronouns, and we must not use the term Trans Identified Males, without even asking us. That, is demanding.

By a male being in a female only single sex space where women and girls are vulnerable, that is taking our rights away.

Not to mention taking the sporting scholarships, medals and awards of girls, and listing male crimes as female crimes.

This here, is how having males identify into women's oppression and spaces affects us:

All of this heavily implies that all 'male bodied' people are sexual abusers and perverts until proven otherwise - do you actually believe that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:52

It doesn’t imply anything of the sort 🙄

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:42

That would only work if I believed that all the men claiming to be women actually had body dysmorphia, which I certainly do not @SleeplessInWherever

In fact, wasn’t it Stonewall that pushed very hard for the idea of gender dysphoria to be removed from criteria of ‘trans’?

They were very clear that not every ‘transwoman’ feels uncomfortable or at odds in their male body. Hence the push for ‘female’ penises. I think there was also an argument that they didn’t owe us ‘gender conformity’ in their appearance ie they didn’t need to wear stereotypically female outfits to prove they were female.

So essentially men with typical male presentation were claiming to be female and using women’s spaces. They had one balding ‘transwoman’ guy on the tv as I remember.

I think the trans leaders quickly realised that that had pushed public credulity to breaking point and it was quietly dropped.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 10:53

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:23

According to biology, which is so important to you, there is. 'Cis' is just a descriptor, not a form of discrimination or oppression.

Check again:

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
Conciliatory Conversation On gender
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:53

A man doesn’t need to be a sexual abuser to violate women’s boundaries.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:53

A man doesn’t need to be a sexual abuser to violate women’s boundaries.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:55

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:46

Read my other posts. I’ve never said TWAW.

Read my post - I didn’t say that.

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:55

@HonestAquaMember if I gave you a bowl of chocolate peanuts but told you some were actually shit, would you eat them? How can women tell which men are predators? They haven’t got diamonds over their heads like on the sims.

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