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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 04:49

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:26

No, youre putting words into my mouth.
I think that spreading awareness of transgender victims of the haulocaust was relevant to a piece of the conversation thread on page 1.

There were no 'transgender' people even in existence in the Nazi era, even though history revisionists are calling transvestites/crossdressers 'transgender'. Transgender hadn't even been thought about, so no one was round up for something that didn't exist. It's simply this type of self-absord trans-revisionism that disrespects actual victims of the holocaust, and really makes people hate the trans community. And you don't see that you are causing this.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 04:56

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:55

Can I just make a point to everyone here?

do you all kind of see how I came in and offered serious and thought through conciliations and how most of you jumped down my throat?

I dont say this out of annoyance but can you see what the real issue is?
No one is talking to each other. Everyone is just shouting.
I requested that people here didnt have to call me a woman but please just dont use man. I requested that people here didnt use Trans Identified male and thats happened to. People could have easily just said person, human etc.
Like do you see why this can be so toxic?
I dont even think anything ive said has been agressive, confrontationary or anything like that.
You know im being accused here of being a man but im one of the few here that isnt actually acting like one.
Thank you so much to all the people who came here and genuinely wanted a conversation. I really appriciated it so much and I will try to think on everything that has been said here to improve myself. I also hope that this brought better understanding for others to.
Thank you but I dont think I will make further replies here as Its gotten abit overwhelming.

I'm sorry but this is total Male Entitlement, even though I know you don't see it.

I requested that people here didnt have to call me a woman but please just dont use man. I requested that people here didnt use Trans Identified male and thats happened to.

You come on a feminist site and start by making demands and requests. So already you have our backs up. You are not in a position to do that. When you come with these demands and requests, you are not being 'conciliatory'. You don't get to makes these requests. You have brass neck thinking you do. You're really not good at this, you have the appearance of being so, but the moment you make these requests, you've ruined it.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:02

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:59

Go in the transgender UK reddit and do what ive done here. Start a conversation. Youll see how hard it is to do.

I can imagine it wouldn't be easy at all. However you don't come here, make 'requests' off the bat and think you'll get a conciliatory welcome.

You just don't do that. That is what you don't understand. You are not in the position to make any request. So you got off on the wrong foot straight away.

And worse, then engage in history revisionism that transgender even existed during WWII, and talk about 'female brain' and 'male brain'. We've heard all of this insulting and deeply offensive nonsense all before, and we aren't going to accept it this time just because you're using a nicer tone.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:03

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:05

Ive already pointed out the maths behind this.
Really bad math due to sample size biases, they are taking roughly 30 million for both Men and Women then cutting that down to 48,000 for trans women people.
It would be better to use a small group of similar size for comparisons.
——————
Also to point out:
92 / 48,000 = 0.0019%
So it’s just them trying to present data in a biased way.

I think you don't understand the term "per capita".

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:06

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:06

mmm and do you not think this happens both ways?
Because I can assure you that it does.

Ok you are flat out lying here. Feminists don't even do 'counter protests' whenever trans have their own rallies.

We don't surround men and yell, heckle and abuse.

Only the (predominantly) men do that to us women. You will never find one single example of us women surround trans and males heckling them. Because women are vulnerable, we don't square up to men.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:07

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:08

Lesbians support transgender people more than we support oursevles. It sits at about 86 percent approval. So I mean its quite tiring hearing about that. Okay! im done. I said I was done and im done. Thanks for the reply but Im totally drained lol.
Much love and peace to everyone here and hopefully (as much as this didnt) we can all find common ground in the future!

I think you are confusing 'supporting' you (as all of us support trans people not being hurt), and agreeing with you being in single sex spaces.

They are two entirely different things. And it's dishonest to conflate the two.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:10

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:11

sigh I mean you can look it up if you want to.

There is zero evidence that a male (no matter how he identifies) is at greater risk of sexual assault than females. Zero.

And despite your pretence at being civil, saying you are more at risk than actual women is deeply offensive and insulting. And shows you are truly not open to the truth at all, nor coming here in good faith.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:20

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:36

Okay actually thank you for actually giving a decent reply!

' If there is a female brain type then surely one of its characteristics is that it is predisposed to non-violent, conciliatory behaviour due to biological role of child-rearing.' I suppose on average...maybe? I mean it is first of all worth mentioning although there is sex differences in the brain there is also large and vast individual differences espesically through time and life.

I think your question here really points to the fact that we are still learning. When I said 'female brain' I meant this anatomically speaking and things like responses and so on. Speaking about larger topics and more complicated behaviour the answer could be, I dont know? I mean I know people have called me a man here but I did just say I didnt know. Bad joke. Anyway

Also I think that transgender probably have fairly unique brains and ive seen studies where thats unrelated to sex differences but other parts of the brain. We dont really know what that could mean other than that the brain could actually be gender diverse beyond a binary. It could also be a reason why autism is prevelant in Transgender people. Though I am very neurotypical so maybe thats why im here now? Maybe.

I think also, knowing what I know about transgender people, we arent really a monolith. I am very binary conforming. I believe deeply in medical transition. I, quite frankly, despite what some rather unpleasant people seemed to have said here, am very female. I have often been called the most cis trans woman that they know.

On the other hand, others are...less like that? I must admit I dont have too much communication with other transgender people. Im just a girl living her life basically. Im a girl who happens to be trans and not a transgender person who happens to be a girl. But yes, some transgender women are much less passing and can be more difficult to communicate with.

I also think that while you cite incidents of bad behaviour it is worth nothing that hate crimes against trangender people rose by 186 percent last year. So most of them are scared. Hell im scared and Im one of the most safe. This is why I felt I had to do this today and why im going to try things like this more often. I just dont feel this situation is sustainable you know?

But to answer your final question, speaking from myself, what makes me what I am is the peace estrogen brought me that testosterone never could. I couldnlt process my mind before and I cant really explain it that well other than it was like the wrong fuel? Id do honestly anything to be able to be like you and have the right anatomy to have my own children. Its what ive always wanted and I feel like I let my boyfriend down all the time because I cant give him that. And I guess thats why it hurts when someone doesnt see me. I cant fundementally prove on every level why my brain is why it is no one can. All I know is if I ever try to be anything different than I am then my whole world falls apart.

I hope this helps. Ive said alot of things, Im sorry.

I also think that while you cite incidents of bad behaviour it is worth nothing that hate crimes against trangender people rose by 186 percent last year. So most of them are scared.

You are omitting the fact that saying 'no' to a male is seen as a 'hate crime' in some of these 'studies'. I've seen a 'study' that breaks down the hate crime. Strange looks was listed as a 'hate crime'. I kid you not. And if I find it I will post it. Telling a male to leave a female space? Hate crime! Strange look or second glance? Hate crime! Hence the figures are over-inflated with petty nonsense that are not actually truly "hate". The fact of the matter is that trans is the most powerful, most privileged and most protected sacred caste and celebrated group out. They are less likely to get hate than gays even.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:25

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:50

I mean its hard to take your analysis of me seriously when you are the one attacking me and not the other way around, do you see the issue?

Please don't gaslight and lie. Nowhere has Squirrel attacked you. Not at all. See this is why "hate crimes" against trans people cannot be taken seriously. You've outright lied. Squirrel was congenial and straightforward. There was absolutely no attack on you anywhere in her post.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 05:26

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:20

I also think that while you cite incidents of bad behaviour it is worth nothing that hate crimes against trangender people rose by 186 percent last year. So most of them are scared.

You are omitting the fact that saying 'no' to a male is seen as a 'hate crime' in some of these 'studies'. I've seen a 'study' that breaks down the hate crime. Strange looks was listed as a 'hate crime'. I kid you not. And if I find it I will post it. Telling a male to leave a female space? Hate crime! Strange look or second glance? Hate crime! Hence the figures are over-inflated with petty nonsense that are not actually truly "hate". The fact of the matter is that trans is the most powerful, most privileged and most protected sacred caste and celebrated group out. They are less likely to get hate than gays even.

I missed this nonsense about hate crimes.

Obviously trans people are victims of more hate crimes than women, purely because of how hate crimes are defined in law.

A hate crime is a crime motivated by hatred towards the victim on grounds of one of five characteristics (transgender identity, sexual orientation, disability, race and religion, I think).

Misogyny (hatred of women on grounds of their female sex) is not defined as a hate crime, which means women can only be victims of hate crime if they have one of the other characteristics and the crime against them is committed for that reason.

TLDR: Raping, murdering and dismembering a woman and later admitting in court that you did it because you hate women so much is not a hate crime. Spray painting "I hate trannies" on a trans person's front door is.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:29

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:53

'I will advocate for you to not be discriminated against in all areas of life where you being a trans woman does not require women to make space for you; sports, bathrooms, policy positions relating to women, artistic or intellectual competitions.' Yeah I mean, do you see how the start conflicts with the end?

It really doesn't. As all males should have rights not to be discriminated against in employment etc, but that doesn't include sexed spaces. The fact you refuse to even admit this or budge an inch show you didn't come here in good faith.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:32

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:56

'The idea anyone can be a woman for a day just because they say so is absurd and lines have been drawn.'
I mean I dont disagree with that. I know you dont think so but I am a woman so yes I understand that this isnt a good precedent.
Again, I dont really care what peoples personal beleifs are but I think that we do need to have a good discussion about how to intergrate properly and end this. As for my biological maleness, if it exists it isnt working very well!

I think that we do need to have a good discussion about how to intergrate properly and end this.

But you don't mean that. You want us to accept you in our spaces, and you want to change our minds by 'talking' to us. You don't understand that is simply not possible and will not ever, ever be possible. So we're at a stalemate. The only compromise is third spaces. Unless you accept that, you've wasted your time coming here.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:37

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:08

Im not playing words games with this one.
Do you think chess should be gender segreagated or not?

I think you mean sex segregated. And why can't females have something to ourselves, just because? Why do we need to justify having something to ourself, just for once?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:44

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:29

Why are you talking about me like im not here?
And why do you feel the misgendering is nessescary?
How are we to agree on anything with this kind of thing going on?

Again you are scolding women for 'misgendering' which shows you are not here in good faith. You are the one 'misgendering' or rather mis-sexing yourself. Don't bully women into mis-sexing you. You are not in the position to make demands or requests. One would think you would have greater concerns than a woman correctly-sexing you.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:46

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:30

Well I obviously think thats a false frame and premise. So I cant answer your question sadly.

If you cannot even answer a basic question such as On a day to day, practical level which males would be allowed into women’s spaces and how would that be managed? which is surely the lynchpin to this entire issue, then why did you even bother coming here at all?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 05:54

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:41

'You haven't been polite in the slightest! - I mean I have.
How is polite to walk into a room full of women' I posted a thread on the internet for anyone to see or reply to.

I mean (and why do you start off a post like that? Do you start off talking like this in real life? It's really irritating) you really haven't. You came on here throwing your weight around making 'requests' (demands), saying you have a female brain, saying other offensive nonsense like transgender even existed in the Nazi era and lied that they were in the holocaust, said you as a male are more at risk than actual women just because you're trans, and refuse to engage about how to manage spaces (so why even be here then?).

So you've been deeply offensive, impolite and insulting from the start, you just thought if you spoke 'nicely' we wouldn't notice.

You really don't have the slightest idea how offensive, impolite and insulting you have been, do you? Reflect on it. We are saying this is how you come across. Just think about it.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:04

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:43

'They parrot the preposterous Butlerian line that expanding our definitions to accommodate trans "women" doesn't make us any less female.'

It doesnt. And again ive tried to make this a discussion that avoids terms like Trans Identified men and youve said this several times so I dont really think youre in keeping with the spirit honestly.

And again ive tried to make this a discussion that avoids terms like Trans Identified men and youve said this several times so I dont really think youre in keeping with the spirit honestly.

You've tried to. You've decided to avoid it. WE haven't. See, once again you are making demands. YOU decide something, and expect we will go along with it. You don't see how you unilaterally deciding something doesn't automatically mean YOU get to set the terms and we must follow. You don't see how bullying and offensive you are. You can decide something for yourself, you do not get to throw your weight around and expect we will do what you want. You can decide not to use terms like Trans Identified Men. WE can decide otherwise.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:08

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:45

Honestly with respect, youve made alot of replies that I appriciate. But I honestly just feeling you keep looking for a gotcha. Which is not what ive been trying to do.

So you are wiggling out of answering the question because you can't answer it.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:08

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 23:00

Are you suggesting that it’s just a wild coincidence that men make up the vast majority of murderers (and all the rapists)??

What even IS a man in your mind?

No, I’m suggesting that being born a male, with the biology that makes you such, isn’t the reason for male violence. I don’t think their chromosomal difference just has a violent part tucked away in it.

Of course it exists, but it’s not as a result of their sex. It’s as a result of their gender socialisation.

Believing it is sex based actually feeds into “men will be men 🤷🏻‍♀️,” and makes the issue harder to solve.

If we believe violence is sex related, it’s biological and can’t be changed. Because we can’t change biology.

Gender based violence can be addressed, because it means it’s not a biological certainty. Which it isn’t, otherwise they’d all be doing it.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:13

GarlicSmile · 25/04/2025 04:37

You've written some breath-taking nonsense amongst your "Why can't everyone just be nice like me" protestations, but this one's a doozy!

You think people who don't recognise a gender identity don't know who they are? 😂 That we're unaware, unthinking, unfeeling bundles of physical biology?

On the very, very slim chance that you did mean what you wrote here - allow me to introduce the concepts of character, personality, intellect, curiosity, ability and experience. You'll find them much more interesting than gender, and equally present in both sexes.

What happened to “good faith”?

Apologies though for the breath taking, hope you’re okay.

I’m not the one saying that I’m a woman solely because biology.

Saying that then saying “but I’m not just biology, even though I’d like you to class me as biology just for this conversation” hardly makes sense.

“I’m more than just my parts. But also “adult human female” thank you.”

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:13

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:53

Yeah I mean some of this is just base misinformation. Children Indentifying as dogs? cmon now lets get real.

'I suggest if you don’t like the law, you start a go fund me and do exactly what the FWS did' I mean thats not that true really as you did have a billionaire funder. Ive seen it be called grassroots but I dont feel you can really say that.

'go to the Supreme Court and get the decision changed'
I mean this will go to the ECHR and it will be changed. It already was in 2002 to no resistance.

Yeah I mean some of this is just base misinformation.

I mean it is true. There have been children identifying as animals. The evidence is there.

I mean thats not that true really as you did have a billionaire funder.

I mean it is true, JK donated a lot, sure, but she is a millionaire, not a billionaire, and many others donated too. She is but one person who donated.

I mean this will go to the ECHR and it will be changed.

I mean it really won't. Even lawyers on the trans side said it's impossible that will happen, someone can bring about a single claim but they need to prove how they were discriminated against by a LAW, personally. ECHR themselves have piped up and said they wouldn't hear a case. So it's dead in the water. I mean, sorry. You're dreaming.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:17

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:59

sigh
'You said you came on here looking for conciliation. What exactly are you conceding here? '
I have conceded that I dont agree with some aspects of trans rights like Self ID etc. Did you read my messages?

Also, why are half of you so obsessed with the term male entitlement?
I mean Id understand if I came in here shouting and being confrontational but I havent done any of that. Maybe thats coming from....you?

Like can we just take a moment to appriciate the fact that my own community would vilify and have incidentally for conceding anything at all?

Also, why are half of you so obsessed with the term male entitlement?
I mean Id understand if I came in here shouting and being confrontational but I havent done any of that.

I mean you really, really have. You came in here throwing your weight around demanded we not call you 'he' or 'man', unilaterally decided this discussion would not include Trans Identified Man, without even asking us. That, is a strong example of Male Entitlement.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 06:20

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:08

No, I’m suggesting that being born a male, with the biology that makes you such, isn’t the reason for male violence. I don’t think their chromosomal difference just has a violent part tucked away in it.

Of course it exists, but it’s not as a result of their sex. It’s as a result of their gender socialisation.

Believing it is sex based actually feeds into “men will be men 🤷🏻‍♀️,” and makes the issue harder to solve.

If we believe violence is sex related, it’s biological and can’t be changed. Because we can’t change biology.

Gender based violence can be addressed, because it means it’s not a biological certainty. Which it isn’t, otherwise they’d all be doing it.

I had a similar conversation with someone yesterday. She said, in response to single sex spaces, that she thought it would be better to have the primary toilets as “inclusive” with off shoots of SSS for those men and women who needed them because otherwise it would be further entrenching the idea that men were violent and nothing else could be done about it. She felt having smaller numbers of single sex spaces would provide refuges for those that need it but would be signalling that it should be normal for both sexes to coexist in all spaces without any problems.

While I understand the sentiment of not wanting to embed the idea of male violence as a given further, the problem is that male violence is currently a huge problem, and not acknowledging it is idealistic and places women in harm’s way. I appreciate you have said that you personally would respect SSS (and yes, I’m not sure how you could drag men anywhere!) but I think not wanting to separate on the basis of sex because that implies the problems are inherent and unfixable skips out solving the problem of VAWG and instead pretends that there isn’t an issue, which will ultimately end in more violence against women and girls.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:21

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:01

Well, I mean first and foremost I declared I was a transgender woman in the very first message. ANd seen as you think we are men then its not hard for you to make this guess is it? Jesus weve got a sherlock over here girls

Sorry but honeslty the only thing I asked was to avoid calling me a man thats litterally it. And 70 percent of you couldnlt help yourselves, while incidentally accusing me of all kinds of things.

the only thing I asked was to avoid calling me a man thats litterally it.

Well I mean that is not it though, is it. Not only did you stomp in here demanding we address you how you demand, you also unilaterally decided that the term Trans Identified Man is not to be used.

You're a bully who stomped in here and made demands and told us, not asked us, the terms of the discussion. You can't see how offensively smug Male Privilege that is. You, don't get to make any demands or requests. Have you got that? You are not in a position to. You sit down and accept how we want to run the discussion. That's it. We say how it is going to go, not you!

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