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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:23

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:09

'You still don't accept our right to exist.' Love some irony <3

You exist. No one is denying your existence. You exist as a male. And as a human.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:29

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 06:20

I had a similar conversation with someone yesterday. She said, in response to single sex spaces, that she thought it would be better to have the primary toilets as “inclusive” with off shoots of SSS for those men and women who needed them because otherwise it would be further entrenching the idea that men were violent and nothing else could be done about it. She felt having smaller numbers of single sex spaces would provide refuges for those that need it but would be signalling that it should be normal for both sexes to coexist in all spaces without any problems.

While I understand the sentiment of not wanting to embed the idea of male violence as a given further, the problem is that male violence is currently a huge problem, and not acknowledging it is idealistic and places women in harm’s way. I appreciate you have said that you personally would respect SSS (and yes, I’m not sure how you could drag men anywhere!) but I think not wanting to separate on the basis of sex because that implies the problems are inherent and unfixable skips out solving the problem of VAWG and instead pretends that there isn’t an issue, which will ultimately end in more violence against women and girls.

I actually think that’s workable.

If the issue is that some of us don’t have the SSS spaces fight as a priority, and some do - those that are advocating for a SSS would have one. Problem solved, right?

For example - I’m okay personally on a mixed ward, so put me on it. If you wanted a women only ward, there’d be one of those available too.

I’m not ignorant to VAWG, frankly I’m not immune from it either, but I don’t believe sex segregation as the default is the answer. Education, intervention, societal change, are all “the answer.”

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:35

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:15

I have been engaging with them for about 5 hours.
Im tired. Im Sorry.
Thank you for calling my boyfriend gay and saying it wasnt rude scarlet.
I really am done this time cause ima bout to COLLAPSE 😂

Love you all even if you hate me or whatever thing you come up with.
I suppose in conclusion id say about 30 percent of people engaged me in an okay spirit. But I do feel that at this point, conceding anything might actually turn out to be pointless and I get the feeling here nothing will ever be enough for some of you in the same way my boyfriend will never really be enough for the people who say he can never be british.

I hope that one day we (including me) can be better at this.
Much Love and Peace xxx

HomoSEXuality is based on sex. Sexual preference. If there is a male attracted to another male, they are gay.

To deny same sex attraction is homophobic. Your comments really underpin just a deeply, deeply homophobic trans ideology really is.

A few days ago we had a trans man come on here. It went over much better, because as a female, they instinctively knew how to communicate in good faith with other females. Your attitude of stomping in, demanding pronouns, telling us how the discussion will be had is the MASTERCLASS in how NOT to do it and in Male Entitlement. Have a read of this thread here, and see where you went wrong: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318203-ask-me-anything-about-my-experience-as-a-trans-man-who-wholeheartedly-defends-womens-rights?latest=1

2021x · 25/04/2025 06:40

Those brain studies that I have read are also saying that the brains of gay men are different. I am uncomfortable with these studies as it trying to support a theory based on structure not on a mixture of factors i.e brain and childhood experiences.

There are 3 main things that contribute to being a woman in 2025; 1) having significantly less body strength 2)being on the receiving end of persistent sexualisation and being unable to physically prevent a male if they attempt sexual assault 3) existing in a world where for a majority of society all the decision making power was with the opposite sex.

As a male you cannot experience this and therefore your feelings of being female are purely based on what you see and hear but you don’t have the context.

I personally believe that gender dysphoria is about not wanting to be what you are. The problem with the affirmation model of care is that it affirms the feelings based on observation, not challenge the feelings of dysphoria. It also relys on forcing, either bullying or threats, other people to disbelieve their own truth about you. This was always going to be achievable for a short period of time.

I thinks as the TGwomen allowed so much misogyny, entitlement and hate in order to get what they wanted by allowing gay men to get the message they need to take a break and let the TGMen and lesbians repair a lot of the trust that has been lost over this.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 06:41

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:29

I actually think that’s workable.

If the issue is that some of us don’t have the SSS spaces fight as a priority, and some do - those that are advocating for a SSS would have one. Problem solved, right?

For example - I’m okay personally on a mixed ward, so put me on it. If you wanted a women only ward, there’d be one of those available too.

I’m not ignorant to VAWG, frankly I’m not immune from it either, but I don’t believe sex segregation as the default is the answer. Education, intervention, societal change, are all “the answer.”

I agree that “Education, intervention, societal change, are all “the answer” to solving the issue of VAWG but it hasn’t been solved yet.

Single sex spaces might not be the answer to change societal behaviour but they are the answer to what we currently face, which is an epidemic of violence against women and girls and are the solution to keeping women safe in the climate we are currently in.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:41

I have bookmarked this thread in my trans folder to show as an example of how transwomen are entitled and make demands, how they gaslight, bully and throw their weight around. This thread, is a masterclass in male entitlement, the bemusing but sad thing is, is that the OP genuinely doesn't see it or get how they come across. They don't realise that they failed on every level, and only succeeded in riling us up and setting us more determinedly in our attitude. Basically, they've proven our point. On every conceivable level. Using the same rigid trans talking points, only in a softer tone, won't fool us. It was sly, but we saw through it. You're still using the same rigid talking points. Whether in a combative tone, or softer one. It's all the same. There is no attempt at conciliation. No budging an inch. You may have gotten away with it, if only you hadn't made demands and set rules for discussion, Making demands and setting rules is the icing on the cake of bullying and thuggery!

This thread is exhibit A in Male Entitlement and how NOT to attempt a 'conciliatory' discussion. Everything you could say and do wrong, you did.

Valeriekat · 25/04/2025 06:45

It’s all about you though and no thought about the women who have been affected by men in women’s spaces.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:47

I forgot to add that in transgender hate crimes, 'misgendering' is considered a 'hate crime'. Misgendering (or rather, correctly-sexing). Misgendering! 🙄 So we can see how far and wide they define 'hate'. This group truly don't know what actual genuine 'hate' is. So they have to say something completely innocuous is 'hate' to conflate the figures. That, is the epitome of entitlement.

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 06:50

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:06

Well actually if you read through my intial message.
I said that my brain has developed likely from birth as female with the sex differences in the brain being female or female resembled.
I didnt say that I became female but yes I have changed aspects of my sex devevlopment at this point which brings me much closer to female physically.

What’s a female brain?

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:54

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 06:41

I agree that “Education, intervention, societal change, are all “the answer” to solving the issue of VAWG but it hasn’t been solved yet.

Single sex spaces might not be the answer to change societal behaviour but they are the answer to what we currently face, which is an epidemic of violence against women and girls and are the solution to keeping women safe in the climate we are currently in.

I respectfully disagree.

I’ve said a few times, the law is the law and I’ll just go into whatever space is available that meets my needs. For example, if I need hospital treatment and it’s a women’s ward, fair enough, if it’s mixed; also fine.

I think that sex based segregation; and the debate around it, feeds into a normalisation of fear and the assumption that all men are out to get us. It widens the gap.

I obviously acknowledge that some men are dangerous, but I don’t feel in any way encouraged to live in fear of all of them by default.

Usually when I say that someone comes in to tell me I’m privileged and don’t understand male violence. So in advance - that’s not true.

My father is an abusive alcoholic who terrorised our family home for my entire childhood, I was groomed and assaulted by a 22 year old when I was 15, my boyfriend at 19 tried to kill me after a long period of DV, and my ex husband is emotionally, financially and psychologically abusive.

I have “reason” to assume that men are dangerous, as many/most women do, I just refuse to allow the actions of those men to shape my views of men as a sex class - they’re not all the same and I won’t believe that they are, and I won’t live in constant fear of them all either.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 25/04/2025 06:55

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:59

Go in the transgender UK reddit and do what ive done here. Start a conversation. Youll see how hard it is to do.

Except I wouldn’t have the arrogance to do that…

FrippEnos · 25/04/2025 06:57

@FairAdvocate

The thing is for all of the "conciliatory" title and talk of a "reset".

A reset isn't what you are actually talking about, is a temporary truce where by you consolidate your gains. (mainly because the tide is turning and your side is starting to lose its grip).

We can tell that this is the case buy your use of language, i.e I am a woman, call me by my preferred pronouns, the term "cis", and your inability to recognise that many people do not have a gender identity.

The issue has been that women (and men) have been happy to bump along with trans (sexual) people, until the trans lobby decided that they wanted more and more and tried not only to take it, tried to redefine what everyone to suit their agenda, tried to change history and then #NoDebated it, and threatened rape and violence to those that disagreed with you.

So if you want to have meaningful conversations maybe talk to your side first and get them to stop the death and rape threats first.

But in short.
No-one here hates you
No-one here wants to erase your existence
No-one wants to take away your rights.
No-one wants to have their rights taken away.
and everyone wants everyone to live a happy life.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:59

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 06:20

I had a similar conversation with someone yesterday. She said, in response to single sex spaces, that she thought it would be better to have the primary toilets as “inclusive” with off shoots of SSS for those men and women who needed them because otherwise it would be further entrenching the idea that men were violent and nothing else could be done about it. She felt having smaller numbers of single sex spaces would provide refuges for those that need it but would be signalling that it should be normal for both sexes to coexist in all spaces without any problems.

While I understand the sentiment of not wanting to embed the idea of male violence as a given further, the problem is that male violence is currently a huge problem, and not acknowledging it is idealistic and places women in harm’s way. I appreciate you have said that you personally would respect SSS (and yes, I’m not sure how you could drag men anywhere!) but I think not wanting to separate on the basis of sex because that implies the problems are inherent and unfixable skips out solving the problem of VAWG and instead pretends that there isn’t an issue, which will ultimately end in more violence against women and girls.

Also it's not just about violence, it's about privacy and dignity, away from the male gaze. Girls have their periods in private school. We don't want boys hearing us opening sanitary pads. I think people forget how uncomfortable and embarrassing puberty is for girls. Having boys in the next stall would be excruciatingly embarrassing.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 07:00

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:13

What happened to “good faith”?

Apologies though for the breath taking, hope you’re okay.

I’m not the one saying that I’m a woman solely because biology.

Saying that then saying “but I’m not just biology, even though I’d like you to class me as biology just for this conversation” hardly makes sense.

“I’m more than just my parts. But also “adult human female” thank you.”

I am all of these things:

  • adult
  • female
  • human
  • mother
  • daughter
  • sister
  • wife
  • British
  • French
  • European
  • a book lover
  • a runner
  • a musician
  • a baker
  • a wine drinker
  • a linguist
  • moderately left wing
  • more of a cat person than a dog person

All of these things (and many more) make me who I am. Only the first three things on that list (combined, not separately) make me a woman. The next four things on that list are only possible because I am a woman, but they are not necessary requirements for being a woman.

But I would say that most of what makes up my personal identity comes from the rest of the list and has nothing to do with being a man or a woman.

So no, I am not defined by my female biology. But I am specifically a woman and not a man because of my female biology.

If being a woman was an identity then all women would share an identifiable set of traits unrelated to their female biology. But we don't. Our female biology is the only thing we have in common.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 07:09

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:54

I respectfully disagree.

I’ve said a few times, the law is the law and I’ll just go into whatever space is available that meets my needs. For example, if I need hospital treatment and it’s a women’s ward, fair enough, if it’s mixed; also fine.

I think that sex based segregation; and the debate around it, feeds into a normalisation of fear and the assumption that all men are out to get us. It widens the gap.

I obviously acknowledge that some men are dangerous, but I don’t feel in any way encouraged to live in fear of all of them by default.

Usually when I say that someone comes in to tell me I’m privileged and don’t understand male violence. So in advance - that’s not true.

My father is an abusive alcoholic who terrorised our family home for my entire childhood, I was groomed and assaulted by a 22 year old when I was 15, my boyfriend at 19 tried to kill me after a long period of DV, and my ex husband is emotionally, financially and psychologically abusive.

I have “reason” to assume that men are dangerous, as many/most women do, I just refuse to allow the actions of those men to shape my views of men as a sex class - they’re not all the same and I won’t believe that they are, and I won’t live in constant fear of them all either.

98% to 99% (depending on which country you use) of violence is by males. This is from actual statistics. Violence is a gendered (sexed) crime.

And again, it's also about privacy and dignity for females. Women and men are different and privacy and dignity is important. Women naturally feel more comfortable changing pads and getting naked in front of fellow women, than men.

This really should not need to be explained.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 07:13

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:54

I respectfully disagree.

I’ve said a few times, the law is the law and I’ll just go into whatever space is available that meets my needs. For example, if I need hospital treatment and it’s a women’s ward, fair enough, if it’s mixed; also fine.

I think that sex based segregation; and the debate around it, feeds into a normalisation of fear and the assumption that all men are out to get us. It widens the gap.

I obviously acknowledge that some men are dangerous, but I don’t feel in any way encouraged to live in fear of all of them by default.

Usually when I say that someone comes in to tell me I’m privileged and don’t understand male violence. So in advance - that’s not true.

My father is an abusive alcoholic who terrorised our family home for my entire childhood, I was groomed and assaulted by a 22 year old when I was 15, my boyfriend at 19 tried to kill me after a long period of DV, and my ex husband is emotionally, financially and psychologically abusive.

I have “reason” to assume that men are dangerous, as many/most women do, I just refuse to allow the actions of those men to shape my views of men as a sex class - they’re not all the same and I won’t believe that they are, and I won’t live in constant fear of them all either.

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. It’s horrifying how prevalent it all is.

You’re obviously entitled to view men as a class however you like, and I think we agree on lots. We do disagree about the need for single sex spaces but equally, I appreciate that you’ve said you understand that other people want them and therefore should have them.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 07:13

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:59

Also it's not just about violence, it's about privacy and dignity, away from the male gaze. Girls have their periods in private school. We don't want boys hearing us opening sanitary pads. I think people forget how uncomfortable and embarrassing puberty is for girls. Having boys in the next stall would be excruciatingly embarrassing.

I mean primary school. Not 'private' school. Too late to edit.

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 07:18

Men who have taken cross sex hormones are still male.
Men who have had breast implants are still male.
Men who have had their penis removed are still male.
Men who have done all the above are not ‘intersex’ - by which I mean were born with a DSD, a medical condition.
Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution
As we have established, men are not women and I take great offence at any man who claims to be so and continues to call himself a woman in a way that denies reality.
Sex matters.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 07:20

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 07:13

I mean primary school. Not 'private' school. Too late to edit.

I did assume you weren’t suggesting that only privately educated girls had periods 😂

I don’t think anyone is disputing that male violence exists. Where we differ is in our response to that, and how it informs our day to day life.

For example - I actually don’t want to get changed in front of anyone, you included. Cubicle for me, thanks, but who’s in the cubicle next door and the communal space outside of it isn’t of any importance to me.

Privacy and dignity also aren’t a universal experience. I don’t want anyone in the same toilet cubicle as me when I’m meeting period based needs, but I wouldn’t normalise worrying about opening a packet.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 07:22

Soontobe60 · 25/04/2025 07:18

Men who have taken cross sex hormones are still male.
Men who have had breast implants are still male.
Men who have had their penis removed are still male.
Men who have done all the above are not ‘intersex’ - by which I mean were born with a DSD, a medical condition.
Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution
As we have established, men are not women and I take great offence at any man who claims to be so and continues to call himself a woman in a way that denies reality.
Sex matters.

Agreed, but I don't think it should be up to women think of a solution. It should be men that come up with the solution, it's not our problem to solve. I'm sick of women having to do all the work.

We came up with the only workable compromise we will give; third spaces. If they reject that, that's on them.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 07:25

Females also go to the ladies to flee males following/harassing us, we miscarry there and other women help - we wouldn't want a male there, we rinse/dry bloodstained underwear, mooncups, adjust their clothing etc at the communal sinks.

It's so, so, so, so much more than just the 'cubicle'.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 07:33

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 06:35

HomoSEXuality is based on sex. Sexual preference. If there is a male attracted to another male, they are gay.

To deny same sex attraction is homophobic. Your comments really underpin just a deeply, deeply homophobic trans ideology really is.

A few days ago we had a trans man come on here. It went over much better, because as a female, they instinctively knew how to communicate in good faith with other females. Your attitude of stomping in, demanding pronouns, telling us how the discussion will be had is the MASTERCLASS in how NOT to do it and in Male Entitlement. Have a read of this thread here, and see where you went wrong: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318203-ask-me-anything-about-my-experience-as-a-trans-man-who-wholeheartedly-defends-womens-rights?latest=1

God, yes. I relate so much more to the trans men that come on here than to the trans women.

commonsense61 · 25/04/2025 07:55

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 08:02

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 06:54

I respectfully disagree.

I’ve said a few times, the law is the law and I’ll just go into whatever space is available that meets my needs. For example, if I need hospital treatment and it’s a women’s ward, fair enough, if it’s mixed; also fine.

I think that sex based segregation; and the debate around it, feeds into a normalisation of fear and the assumption that all men are out to get us. It widens the gap.

I obviously acknowledge that some men are dangerous, but I don’t feel in any way encouraged to live in fear of all of them by default.

Usually when I say that someone comes in to tell me I’m privileged and don’t understand male violence. So in advance - that’s not true.

My father is an abusive alcoholic who terrorised our family home for my entire childhood, I was groomed and assaulted by a 22 year old when I was 15, my boyfriend at 19 tried to kill me after a long period of DV, and my ex husband is emotionally, financially and psychologically abusive.

I have “reason” to assume that men are dangerous, as many/most women do, I just refuse to allow the actions of those men to shape my views of men as a sex class - they’re not all the same and I won’t believe that they are, and I won’t live in constant fear of them all either.

That’s how you have dealt with your experiences of male violence, which I’m sorry for. It’s not what works for many other women with experience of male violence, like me and other women here. And for other women who just want to have privacy and dignity. You say you understand that many women prefer single sex spaces, but you spend an awful lot of time telling women to “be kind”. On another thread you mentioned how your trans friend was lovely and you thought they should be allowed into women’s spaces. For me, it’s a red flag when men don’t respect women’s boundaries. And with few exceptions that is something the whole trans rights movement is known for. You see these people as vulnerable and you’re right, many of them are. But it’s perfectly possible to be vulnerable and abusive, and many people are.

commonsense61 · 25/04/2025 08:04

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