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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
2024onwardsandup · 24/04/2025 09:58

Women don’t owe you anything. Why aren’t you on Reddit telling men to be less violent.

OlivePeer · 24/04/2025 09:58

The amount of "I won't engage with any of those challenging points because I don't like your tone" from the OP, or the OP just cherry-picking a single detail and going off on a tangent about it but ignoring the main point of a post really shows that this thread wasn't started in good faith.

2024onwardsandup · 24/04/2025 09:59

And yeah - it is very clear that this is written by a man

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:59

@OlivePeeryep

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:59

Barbadosgirl · 24/04/2025 09:16

No. It is coherent. Because you are not prevented entering spaces for females because you are trans. You are prohibited from those spaces because you are male. You said you came on here looking for conciliation. What exactly are you conceding here? Because it sounds like the same male entitlement: you are exceptional and deserve access and if we say no that is discrimination. Is it the case that you are just expecting us to give way because you say you are “true trans”. Is that what you mean by conciliation?

sigh
'You said you came on here looking for conciliation. What exactly are you conceding here? '
I have conceded that I dont agree with some aspects of trans rights like Self ID etc. Did you read my messages?

Also, why are half of you so obsessed with the term male entitlement?
I mean Id understand if I came in here shouting and being confrontational but I havent done any of that. Maybe thats coming from....you?

Like can we just take a moment to appriciate the fact that my own community would vilify and have incidentally for conceding anything at all?

OP posts:
Barbadosgirl · 24/04/2025 10:00

CharlestheBold · 24/04/2025 09:37

@FairAdvocate There is little about your updates that makes sense, I think that your wish to adopt a child is merely to use as a prop to your argument. In itself that is sufficient to prove your unsuitability.

Adoption is tough. Kids who are adopted in the UK have usually faced challenges no children should have to face. They need their adopters to unhesitatingly put the child’s needs before the adopters’ own and this includes any need to be validated as a woman. I cannot see this going well. For example, I had a very honest conversation with my youngest when he was about six about what the term “real mum”
meant and his conclusion was the word real to him meant his biological mum. This was not a problem for me because I accept the reality of our situation. If the OP is going to have the sort of response we have seen on here totally being told something which contradicts his world view then I pity the poor child who will be getting the clear message from day one they are there to fill a gap, as a fantasy prop (which to be fair is not unheard of with planet adoption full stop). Sigh.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 10:00

OP has threatened to flounce multiple times. But strangely hasn’t.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:01

2024onwardsandup · 24/04/2025 09:59

And yeah - it is very clear that this is written by a man

Well, I mean first and foremost I declared I was a transgender woman in the very first message. ANd seen as you think we are men then its not hard for you to make this guess is it? Jesus weve got a sherlock over here girls

Sorry but honeslty the only thing I asked was to avoid calling me a man thats litterally it. And 70 percent of you couldnlt help yourselves, while incidentally accusing me of all kinds of things.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 10:00

OP has threatened to flounce multiple times. But strangely hasn’t.

Yes Im still here. What of it 😅

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 10:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:58

For anyone earnestly engaging and hoping for some insight/empathy, you’re going to be disappointed right up to the end of the thread.

I know it's always the same and we waste our time because ironically as women we so often act against our own best interests in the pursuit of understanding.

Just join the list of narcissists who came before you OP. You're near the back of the queue really and our patience has largely expired at this point.

Barbadosgirl · 24/04/2025 10:04

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:59

sigh
'You said you came on here looking for conciliation. What exactly are you conceding here? '
I have conceded that I dont agree with some aspects of trans rights like Self ID etc. Did you read my messages?

Also, why are half of you so obsessed with the term male entitlement?
I mean Id understand if I came in here shouting and being confrontational but I havent done any of that. Maybe thats coming from....you?

Like can we just take a moment to appriciate the fact that my own community would vilify and have incidentally for conceding anything at all?

So you are conceding some people who say they are trans are not but you are special? So you are conceding something which would not affect you as long as you get all the recognition you are demanding? So in reality you are conceding nothing and expect us to give way to just you? I think perhaps reflect on why you cannot see the male entitlement in that state of affairs which is screaming to us women.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:04

OlivePeer · 24/04/2025 09:58

The amount of "I won't engage with any of those challenging points because I don't like your tone" from the OP, or the OP just cherry-picking a single detail and going off on a tangent about it but ignoring the main point of a post really shows that this thread wasn't started in good faith.

No its not this at all honestly. I dont think you appricaite how many replies ive had to reply to. Youre welcome to try it and get dog piled if you want.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 10:05

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:59

sigh
'You said you came on here looking for conciliation. What exactly are you conceding here? '
I have conceded that I dont agree with some aspects of trans rights like Self ID etc. Did you read my messages?

Also, why are half of you so obsessed with the term male entitlement?
I mean Id understand if I came in here shouting and being confrontational but I havent done any of that. Maybe thats coming from....you?

Like can we just take a moment to appriciate the fact that my own community would vilify and have incidentally for conceding anything at all?

You haven't conceded anything though.

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 10:05

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:43

'They parrot the preposterous Butlerian line that expanding our definitions to accommodate trans "women" doesn't make us any less female.'

It doesnt. And again ive tried to make this a discussion that avoids terms like Trans Identified men and youve said this several times so I dont really think youre in keeping with the spirit honestly.

It's not our "femaleness" we are uncertain about. Trans women don't invalidate our womanhood or make us insecure as their choices have no bearing on our physical state -- that of being an adult human female. It isn't in any way affected by what person x, y, z does.

The part before the Butler one was pertinent. By seizing upon all the descriptors we use to distinguish ourselves from men and campaign for our unique, sex based rights, you endanger their very existence. If you got your way, we would no longer have language to dileneate ourselves from men. That's what is untenable.

About your sexed brains theory, the features that the studies based their hypotheses on are present in homosexual men and people who do not experience any gender incongruence and those groups far outnumber the trans one.

Your gender identity is ultimately an unfalsifiable claim based on your subjective self-appraisal. You invoke fantastical situations to give legitimacy to the idea of gender identity -- "If you woke up male, wouldn't you be distressed?" Guess what, you came into consciousness as a male infant. There was never a point you inhabited a female body and mistakenly descended into a male one. We're firmly in the realm of gendered disembodied spirits with this one. It's a faith based notion.

Women's rights and protections are based on the material, immutable reality of us being of the female sex.

katmarie · 24/04/2025 10:05

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:27

Yeah thats just shit actually, I didnt know about the clothes thing. Genuinely disgusts me. Still think its time for the segregation to end though.

Ending the single sex segregation for chess (and other sports) would remove the opportunity for women to be competitive in their own class. At a global sociological level women get fewer opportunities to play competitive sports, even where there is no physical advantage for male competitors. This is because women typically receive less encouragement to participate at all ages, tend to have more other responsibilities (like pregnancy and rearing children) which limit their ability to pursue sports, and womens sports participation is generally not valued as highly at a global level. This is also why womens teams get paid less than mens on the whole, and why fewer womens sports are broadcast on tv.

None of this is to do with identity, it is purely about how the male sex has dominated over the female sex for generations, and in many societies in the world, it still does.

The advantage of being male isn't just about your current physicality, and the benefit of growing up with male hormones making you bigger and stronger. Being born into the male class also means that you benefit from generations of patriarchal dominance, through the use of that size and strength. You don't get to identify out of that benefit, just by saying you believe you are female. Whether you like it or not, that's the class you were born into, and that's the hand you are dealt.

Women's sex based sports classes are only one way of allowing women to step out of that oppression. Allowing men back into those classes (however they identify) would erase years and years of work by women to move away from that male domination.

As someone else mentioned on this thread, there are a host of educated women here who have thought hard about this situation, and have applied their expertise and experiences to understanding it. I'm a social psychologist and I can point you to reams of research on the impacts of patriarchy on womens access to sports, education, healthcare, the list goes on and on.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:06

Barbadosgirl · 24/04/2025 10:04

So you are conceding some people who say they are trans are not but you are special? So you are conceding something which would not affect you as long as you get all the recognition you are demanding? So in reality you are conceding nothing and expect us to give way to just you? I think perhaps reflect on why you cannot see the male entitlement in that state of affairs which is screaming to us women.

Look this makes no sense.
If you are going to bite someones hand as they try to shake yours you cant expect further communication as frankly what you said about me adopting was disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself and thats as far as im going to get in being the one who is attacking.

OP posts:
KilkennyCats · 24/04/2025 10:08

What on earth makes you believe you are “fully perceived as a female in society”?!
Wishful thinking (or straight up delusion), my friend.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 10:08

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:06

Look this makes no sense.
If you are going to bite someones hand as they try to shake yours you cant expect further communication as frankly what you said about me adopting was disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself and thats as far as im going to get in being the one who is attacking.

What concessions do you believe you have made??

If you want to come and shake our hands then you are welcome to do so but what are we shaking over? You still don't accept our right to exist.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:09

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 10:05

It's not our "femaleness" we are uncertain about. Trans women don't invalidate our womanhood or make us insecure as their choices have no bearing on our physical state -- that of being an adult human female. It isn't in any way affected by what person x, y, z does.

The part before the Butler one was pertinent. By seizing upon all the descriptors we use to distinguish ourselves from men and campaign for our unique, sex based rights, you endanger their very existence. If you got your way, we would no longer have language to dileneate ourselves from men. That's what is untenable.

About your sexed brains theory, the features that the studies based their hypotheses on are present in homosexual men and people who do not experience any gender incongruence and those groups far outnumber the trans one.

Your gender identity is ultimately an unfalsifiable claim based on your subjective self-appraisal. You invoke fantastical situations to give legitimacy to the idea of gender identity -- "If you woke up male, wouldn't you be distressed?" Guess what, you came into consciousness as a male infant. There was never a point you inhabited a female body and mistakenly descended into a male one. We're firmly in the realm of gendered disembodied spirits with this one. It's a faith based notion.

Women's rights and protections are based on the material, immutable reality of us being of the female sex.

Your gender identity is ultimately an unfalsifiable claim based on your subjective self-appraisal. You invoke fantastical situations to give legitimacy to the idea of gender identity -- "If you woke up male, wouldn't you be distressed?" Guess what, you came into consciousness as a male infant. There was never a point you inhabited a female body and mistakenly descended into a male one. We're firmly in the realm of gendered disembodied spirits with this one. It's a faith based notion.'
Do you ever read what you write and think, am I intending to engage with a person here or am I just trying to just say lots of rhetorical things to win a debate?

OP posts:
MyLostUsername · 24/04/2025 10:09

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:52

Um yeah. It hasnt.
I have read the studies and they are pretty robust to be fair.

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if you said this already - have you had a brain MRI?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:09

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 10:08

What concessions do you believe you have made??

If you want to come and shake our hands then you are welcome to do so but what are we shaking over? You still don't accept our right to exist.

'You still don't accept our right to exist.' Love some irony <3

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 10:10

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:09

Your gender identity is ultimately an unfalsifiable claim based on your subjective self-appraisal. You invoke fantastical situations to give legitimacy to the idea of gender identity -- "If you woke up male, wouldn't you be distressed?" Guess what, you came into consciousness as a male infant. There was never a point you inhabited a female body and mistakenly descended into a male one. We're firmly in the realm of gendered disembodied spirits with this one. It's a faith based notion.'
Do you ever read what you write and think, am I intending to engage with a person here or am I just trying to just say lots of rhetorical things to win a debate?

We are all reading and engaging with your posts, mate.

Try engaging with some of the points we have made, particularly the ones you don't like.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:10

KilkennyCats · 24/04/2025 10:08

What on earth makes you believe you are “fully perceived as a female in society”?!
Wishful thinking (or straight up delusion), my friend.

Oh you know me personally?

OP posts:
MagpiePi · 24/04/2025 10:12

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 08:39

I’m genuinely curious so I’ll rephrase a bit. You talked about ‘hurdles’ in your first post. If it was agreed that transwomen who had jumped a certain number of hurdles should be allowed into women’s spaces, how would this be managed?

I suppose transwomen will insist on jumping women’s hurdles….

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
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