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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:44

@FairAdvocate so without using outdated, offensive stereotypes, or using the word woman, please tell us how any male can know what is is to live as or feel like a woman. To suggest all women feel, think or act the same is sexist misogynistic bullshit as I’m sure you’d agree

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:44

Katkins17 · 24/04/2025 09:31

it was a bit tone deaf of you … you claim you have a ‘female brain’ but it’s a very male thinking one… you were doing the very male thing of explaining ‘your point’ to women and how us women should act on and see ‘your point.’

Most women have empathy for their fellow women.
they understand their fears, and feelings because mostly it’s based on shared experiences as females… experience that are from childhood.

for you to proclaim that we should just ‘accept’ your stance because, you say so, it’s overwhelmingly arrogant, because you’re not oppressed, you still maintain the inherent rights you were born with, as a male… whether you care to believe or admit that or not.

maybe do some self reflection to understand why women who have been doxxed, cancelled, assaulted, sacked, blamed, demeaned, made to feel and be ‘lesser’ to a man who proclaims he’s female … just for holding on to the few rights we have got in a world of patriarchy and misogyny … are feeling bitter and more than a tad pissed off!!

maybe do some self reflection to understand why women who have been doxxed, cancelled, assaulted, sacked, blamed, demeaned

Ive been doxed by a neo nazi group for being trans and ive been sexually assaulted. Do you see how your reply doesnt actually help?

OP posts:
MagpiePi · 24/04/2025 09:45

Mansplaining at its finest.

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:45

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:44

@FairAdvocate so without using outdated, offensive stereotypes, or using the word woman, please tell us how any male can know what is is to live as or feel like a woman. To suggest all women feel, think or act the same is sexist misogynistic bullshit as I’m sure you’d agree

Honestly with respect, youve made alot of replies that I appriciate. But I honestly just feeling you keep looking for a gotcha. Which is not what ive been trying to do.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:45

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:40

Um yeah, thats alot for me to reply to me.
'A digression of sorts: Gender identity. What the fuck is it?'
Theres actually quite alot of studies on it actually. I spoke to someone at length about it who had a degree in psychology specialsing in this area.
I wish I had him present now but he went through so much of it with me and I was suprised just how vast it was actually.

'I've read reams about it, watched videos, and still no-one's defined it. Feeling like your mind / soul / inner self is misaligned with your gender (most common claim) is nonsense because nobody feels fully aligned with sex-role stereotypes. I'd be surprised if even half of people feel aligned with half of the stereotypes for their sex.'
I think the real problem is that there is no absolute answer in a way. I mean, I think that there is but I dont think we have found it yet. But you know, we havent found it for gay people either but we still accept them and believe them you know?
I will say for me, its not a stereotype. Its hard for me to explain because well, you feel female because you are one. For me, I am one because something in my brain indicates to me that I am one. Like for example, Ive always held myself to female beauty standards. Not out of expression but out of default. Why that is I wish I could answer I really do. When I looked at my penis I knew it was wrong. Why? 'Because I am a female'. I cant explain it more than that because thats kind of the core thought.

' I can't say I feel aligned with having a female body, it just is what it is. I don't go around feeling great about being a woman. On good days I feel great about being a person.' I think I see this differently. I feel alligned with my female body because I know what its like for that to be gone. I do feel good about being a woman and I appricaite it so much because I know what it feels like when thats gone. I know the feeling of deadness that happens and I never miss a moment and will never miss a moment.

'My female body's done me no favours: I underwent huge personality shifts during puberty and menopause, had absolute bastard periods with unpredictable flooding in public, miscarried six times and menopause dragged on for 12 years.' Jesus, Im sorry. Thats shit. Genuinely.
Im starting to realise that im probably one of the youngest people in this thread.

'None of this is my identity. I'm not keen on the 21st-century obsession with identity, actually. I do understand that feeling but I think you can afford to ignore your identity abit when youve not gone through what ive gone through with it.

'My height and bone structure are, like my sex, simply facts. They're very significant aspects of who & what I am, but I didn't choose them - and I can't choose to change them.' I think that bone structure can be complicated as youve just mentioned. For example I actually have very wide hips. My body shape is an 'hourglass' shape and doesnt really look very male at all. Though I think you can shape for example had you developed a full male beard and body hair on par with a man you would probably find it harder to see yourself as a woman. I think again, it comes down to never really having to think about it too much.

'As it goes, I'm 100% sure MOST people don't have an identity, gender or otherwise, in the way this seems to be meant. My name, sex, age, height, skin colour, nationality, etc are distinct features of my 'identity' as it is meant on official forms. They identify me but they don't define me.'

I think that everyone has an identity. I think that its just some people have to think about it more than others. I think when you are trans you actually are forced to think about it in quite a hard way and I dont think you can just ignore it. I think again, if you started looking like a man and your body and sex chararistics started to reflect that youd also think about it much more because it would cause you distress. I think that ultimately where most people line up a small amount of us just dont.

Apologies for the less good reply, I have been doing this hours and im flagging.

I think the real problem is that there is no absolute answer in a way. I mean, I think that there is but I dont think we have found it yet. But you know, we havent found it for gay people either but we still accept them and believe them you know?

What? This isn't even remotely comparable.

The evidence for gay people is that large numbers of people are out there having sexual relationships with members of the same sex.

What makes you so sure that gender identity is a real thing if you can't even explain what it is?

And what makes you think it has anything to do with being female, which is a biological sex class to which you do not belong?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:46

MagpiePi · 24/04/2025 09:45

Mansplaining at its finest.

mhm, do you think this adds something positive to this conversation?

OP posts:
FortyElephants · 24/04/2025 09:47

LillyPJ · 24/04/2025 09:18

It's a shame that the very first comment showed no empathy, understanding or consideration at all. I hope that other people will be a bit more thoughtful and constructive.

Why would you come in to a long thread with a lot of discussion and post something like this?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:47

Littlebutloud · 24/04/2025 08:57

I think you’re very brave for posting here, and for taking the time to outline your position to a group of people who don’t typically respond well to the trans community. Thanks for sharing your story and I hope society becomes more tolerant and kind

How naive are you? 🙄

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:48

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:44

maybe do some self reflection to understand why women who have been doxxed, cancelled, assaulted, sacked, blamed, demeaned

Ive been doxed by a neo nazi group for being trans and ive been sexually assaulted. Do you see how your reply doesnt actually help?

I'm very sorry you've had those experiences but I am not sure what they have to do with women, or being a woman.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:48

No, I don’t want a gotcha. I am holding out hope that you are not going to use the sexist tropes of describing women and come out with a coherent, logical answer that would explain how a male person can define themself as living or feeling as a woman. what frame of reference are you using? If living as a woman is not down to biology, what is it?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:45

I think the real problem is that there is no absolute answer in a way. I mean, I think that there is but I dont think we have found it yet. But you know, we havent found it for gay people either but we still accept them and believe them you know?

What? This isn't even remotely comparable.

The evidence for gay people is that large numbers of people are out there having sexual relationships with members of the same sex.

What makes you so sure that gender identity is a real thing if you can't even explain what it is?

And what makes you think it has anything to do with being female, which is a biological sex class to which you do not belong?

Thats actually quite easy.

'The evidence for gay people is that large numbers of people are out there having sexual relationships with members of the same sex.'

The evidence for trans people is that large numbers of people are out there tranistioning to members of the opposite sex.

Like the thing is the evidence exists on the same basis which is observing people acting. I think when you observe one and call it valid and ignore the other call it invalid thats really just personal bias.

OP posts:
IhaveanewTVnow · 24/04/2025 09:49

Thankfully the law has decided that biological sex is the deciding factor as to who is a male and who is a female.

I suggest if you don’t like the law, you start a go fund me and do exactly what the FWS did and go to the Supreme Court and get the decision changed.

otherwise, we all have to live with the decision, whether you like it or not. We have been discussing this for 10years. At the beginning I agreed with you. But I’ve watched the behaviour of your acquaintances and I’ve seen our sport changing, women raped in hospital by “women” , girl guides, rape centres, judges telling us to use pro nouns, being forced to use pro nouns at work, children identifying as dogs, etc etc. and I’m not supporting of shared spaces anymore or the misuse use of the word woman.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:50

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:48

No, I don’t want a gotcha. I am holding out hope that you are not going to use the sexist tropes of describing women and come out with a coherent, logical answer that would explain how a male person can define themself as living or feeling as a woman. what frame of reference are you using? If living as a woman is not down to biology, what is it?

To be fair, I have made several deep replies to others that share my story in a very personal way and I have given quite alot of personal experiences already. You can always read those!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:51

Nightingalenight · 24/04/2025 09:01

“Ghost period” Arf. Tell me you’re playing at being a woman without etc etc

Look, I understand you may have gone through similar oppressions - male/sexual violence or the threat of it, discrimination and so on but that doesn’t make you a woman either. And it’s frankly insulting that you think this makes us the same. A bit like Dylan Mulvaney skipping about - it’s all just cos playing.

We’re not defined by our oppression - that arises from our sex. Just as we’re not defined by clothes. Now you clearly believe you are female so I guess you’re not going to agree but just because some aspects of your life (appearance, oppression) look
like a woman’s life, you’re still not a woman.

it really is just all in your head. And I don’t mean your theoretical female brain. You’ve got a very strong faith going on in there, but I don’t have to believe the same thing. And you can’t force me to.

Honestly, at this point you’re having as much impact as someone standing in the high street on Saturday morning handing out leaflets saying I’m going to hell. I’m never going to take your leaflet. I just don’t believe what you’re saying.

Exactly. I wish people would get their heads around the fact that most people don’t think this ideology is particularly convincing, they’re just trying to be nice.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:52

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:43

'They parrot the preposterous Butlerian line that expanding our definitions to accommodate trans "women" doesn't make us any less female.'

It doesnt. And again ive tried to make this a discussion that avoids terms like Trans Identified men and youve said this several times so I dont really think youre in keeping with the spirit honestly.

No, it doesn't make us any less female.

What it does is deprive us of a word for "female".

Do you agree that we should have the right to define ourselves as members of a biological sex class which does not include you?

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:52

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:50

To be fair, I have made several deep replies to others that share my story in a very personal way and I have given quite alot of personal experiences already. You can always read those!

I have. They still do not explain what it is without using sexist tropes that makes you feel you are a woman.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:53

IhaveanewTVnow · 24/04/2025 09:49

Thankfully the law has decided that biological sex is the deciding factor as to who is a male and who is a female.

I suggest if you don’t like the law, you start a go fund me and do exactly what the FWS did and go to the Supreme Court and get the decision changed.

otherwise, we all have to live with the decision, whether you like it or not. We have been discussing this for 10years. At the beginning I agreed with you. But I’ve watched the behaviour of your acquaintances and I’ve seen our sport changing, women raped in hospital by “women” , girl guides, rape centres, judges telling us to use pro nouns, being forced to use pro nouns at work, children identifying as dogs, etc etc. and I’m not supporting of shared spaces anymore or the misuse use of the word woman.

Yeah I mean some of this is just base misinformation. Children Indentifying as dogs? cmon now lets get real.

'I suggest if you don’t like the law, you start a go fund me and do exactly what the FWS did' I mean thats not that true really as you did have a billionaire funder. Ive seen it be called grassroots but I dont feel you can really say that.

'go to the Supreme Court and get the decision changed'
I mean this will go to the ECHR and it will be changed. It already was in 2002 to no resistance.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:54

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:52

No, it doesn't make us any less female.

What it does is deprive us of a word for "female".

Do you agree that we should have the right to define ourselves as members of a biological sex class which does not include you?

Have you read many of my replies? I mean this with respect but I find some of you just want me to keep repeating myself.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:54

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 09:52

I have. They still do not explain what it is without using sexist tropes that makes you feel you are a woman.

Uh huh, im sure you have.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:55

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:48

Thats actually quite easy.

'The evidence for gay people is that large numbers of people are out there having sexual relationships with members of the same sex.'

The evidence for trans people is that large numbers of people are out there tranistioning to members of the opposite sex.

Like the thing is the evidence exists on the same basis which is observing people acting. I think when you observe one and call it valid and ignore the other call it invalid thats really just personal bias.

Edited

No, nobody is transitioning to be a member of the opposite sex, because such a thing is scientifically impossible. No mammal has ever changed sex.

Trans people exist, they are people who are either male or female and were observed to be so at or before birth, but for reasons best known to themselves believe that they should have been born the opposite sex.

What about the existence of "gender identity"? Where is the evidence that this is a real thing that all people have?

Surely the existence of people telling you they don't have one is all the proof you need that this theory is incorrect?

FloatingSquirrel · 24/04/2025 09:56

Do you understand that your strongheld beliefs conflict with the strongheld beliefs of certain women?
How do you propose a solution which makes you comfortable which also makes women who are Muslim and can't for example go swimming with or redo their hijab infront of someone who is biologically male comfortable?
Do you agree that a biological male regardless of surgery has an unfair advantage in sports too?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 09:56

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:54

Have you read many of my replies? I mean this with respect but I find some of you just want me to keep repeating myself.

Yes I have, you haven't answered this question.

Should we be entitled to have a word that means "all members of the female sex and no members of the male sex", which excludes you because you are a member of the male sex?

Yes or no?

RedHelenB · 24/04/2025 09:57

Right. So trans means not feeling comfortable in your biological body, wishing you could change sex( which obviously isn't a biological possibility)and sometimes taking hormones having surgery to get nearer visually to the sex you wish/feel you are?
Would that sum it up?
Just as homosexuality is being attracted to and wishing to have sex with the same biological sex?

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 09:57

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 08:44

OP it is possible that most people will NEVER agree with you. Like as in 98% of people in the world will likely never see you as you wish to be seen.

How do you intend to manage the discomfort of this? Because the onus is on you to make peace with this. It is not up to the world to validate your self-perception. The world will see you as it sees you.

You are just one in a long line of attempted educators. It's always about the rest of the world having to support the self-image of the trans person rather than the trans person having to accept that they will never be seen as what they wish to be. You might find the Psychiatrist Az Hakeem interesting on this. He sees this insistence in terms of autistic meltdown.

I hope you find peace in this world as you are not as you wish the world to see you. I urge you to understand that many people will never accept your self definition (even if they pretend to out of politeness) and that's okay. Learn to find peace in this and have some respect for the women around you. Women have long been allies and friends with gay men, even when in recent years some of those men have treated us poorly.

Seriously check Az Hakeem out he's a very interesting guy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:58

For anyone earnestly engaging and hoping for some insight/empathy, you’re going to be disappointed right up to the end of the thread.

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