The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

The thing is, a significant number of these young women will change their minds and have children at some point. I was a bit like that when I was in 20s; I remember being out with a friend and sneering about “crotch goblins” and how we would never have any. 20 years later I have 2 and she has 3! If you’d tried to tell me this at the time I would have called you patronising and told you to fuck off though, so just smiling and nodding is the best response.

(Disclaimer: I know that plenty of people also decide to remain child free in their 20s and stay that way. In my experience they tend be less vocal about it than the ones who ultimately change their minds.)

It's more acceptable to say these things now. Personally I think if you've considered having kids and it's not for you, you probably don't make a huge deal over it.

If it's just uuughh nappies then it's more likely to be a superficial reaction that could change. But "I'm cool not like other girls" has always been a thing, I don't think it's new in itself.

Yeah I get what you mean entirely
OP. I grew up with a mother who was a great feminist and also a wonderful SAHM so I never saw feminism and motherhood as mutually exclusive but there are definitely many people who think in this way.

I don't think it's helped by the drive to get women back into work asap. The push towards 'free' childcare and the insinuation that nurseries are better for young children than being at home all devalue motherhood.

There is a big anti motherhood movement now.

And it's global.

The world is moving towards a birth rate below replacement rate because societies make it so horrible for mothers.

If it doesn't change it will be the end of the human race.

I didn't want kids until I wanted them, if that makes sense. A big life incident happened at 29 and made me re-evaluate. Current stats suggest that the majority of women will end up having children. This is declining, but it is still the case.

Children are bloody hard work and involves a lot of sacrifice. To me, they are just about worth it tbh (and I love my children). Society does not make it easy to raise them.

I've said this sort of thing before op and I probably won't ever have children now but most of it was a bit of a joke to make myself feel better if I'm honest.

Over the years all the men I have met have been wildly unsuitable and immature in their own ways to be fathers and also had no respect for my biological clock and felt ok about wasting my time. Economically I would also never have beeen able to afford to do it alone or cope if any children's father left and so i just didn't want to risk it with someone i wasn't confident in.

I think about a year after I married I was talking to a friend at work about how DH and I were looking for a house in a more family friendly place rather than so cosmopolitan (she lived in central London and I then lived in central-ish London) and her response was so sad and apologetic. I had to tell her it was a very happy decision that we wanted a child.

I agree with you op.

I can't work out if it's either

Because we are overall a very superficial society obsessed with consumer culture and ourselves

Or

They actually wish they could meet someone, get married and have babies and are jealous

I think it's actually very hard in the UK nowadays to find a man who wants to settle down... therefore women are moulding their own opinions to fit this narrative

A lot of these types of responses against motherhood etc is a way for people to justify their own choices to themselves. It's the same with nursery or no nursery debate.

That said, I do agree that it's a strange state to be in to adhere to ideas of feminism yet judge the choices of other women (if they don't align with your choices).

For me it's mostly been the second. It's a lot easier to self soothe by telling yourself you didn't want that anyway.

Being a mum has always been devalued and the slant on it changes depending on what else is happening in society and for woman. I think there's an issue currently about children being a lifestyle choice not just life. Also the contradictions about what being a mum should be are so difficult. Like the Madonna and Whore. Mum's have to be endlessly achieving etc and be a paragon of virtue who never are less than perfect. I resent that families can access free childcare but can't have the same support to raise their own child.

It's strange. There's definitely a child free movement. I notice many threads on mumsnet now promoting being child free one way or another. I haven't noticed it much in society though.
There's also
A counter movement which seems to be more conservative rooted, urging people to find a good partner and have a bunch of kids.
It's another thing where totally normal decisions are being pushed to become divisive and put you on one side or other.

I actually think it's really sad. I know loads of attractive, lovely single women in their thirties who years ago would have been considered a catch and snapped up by a nice man. But men nowadays in our culture men can get casual sex much more easily than previous times so they can't be bothered to settle down. So women are kind of convincing themselves that a nice husband and kids is not what they wanted anyway.

Personally, I think until we financially reward motherhood, it's always going to seem second rate.

We incentivise mother's to go back into paid employment rather than the other way around.

Also, nursery is now seen to be as equivocal to parenting, so what is the point of sahm? I personally don't think that although I think nursery is brilliant for socialising/ independence (part time).

I actually don't believe feminism is about choice - in the sense of making every woman's choice above reproach just because she's a woman.

In respect of motherhood, its always been devalued. Women previously were allowed by society more time to devote to it, but only because women themselves were considered less than.

Inflexible workplaces, exorbitant childcare, intensive parenting expectations - all make having children very difficult, especially for mothers. Society itself doesn't value it so it seems a bit harsh to call out some women fir reflecting that

And it was ever thus. Surely younger women deriding the choices of earlier generations/older women is inherent? So there’s definitely something about that. “Oh, I’m not stupid enough to do that” etc.

Plus as pp said many do a volte-face late 20s/early 30s - I guess the thing now is that their views on motherhood are there for eternity in social media posts etc so it’s more embarrassing when they change their minds.

The thing is, people who don't want kids base their opinions on it from observation of other peoples kids, whereas until you experience it for yourself you'll never understand it.

Society makes it so hard for women to have children! Maternity pay is shite, childcare is limited and expensive, so many women end up sacrificing their careers and themselves to raise the next generation in society. Its such an important role but so undervalued!

I think it’s quite toxic, I didn’t want a child till my late 30’s but I never volunteered that I didn’t want kids unless asked about it because it just wasn’t a big deal (except to my MIL). Theres a tone of viciousness about it now, I think it does have the “cool girl” vibe going on. I don’t think mothers were ever really held in high esteem tbh, it’s unpaid labour.

I’m a SAHM now (trailing spouse and tbf I had a job vs DH career and it works for us), other women seem to start from the point that I must be utterly stupid. Someone at my book group actually said “I was surprised at the books you read” the assumption being that I usually read mills and boon while covered in baby vomit.

You see it on mumsnet a lot people saying things like “oh I couldn’t do that, I need to work for my braaaain” ignoring the fact that most peoples jobs are repetitive and aren’t extraordinary intellectual endeavours providing constant stretch and expanding the sum total of human knowledge. I do often wish I had stayed in work but thats mostly for the social contact, my work has never been overly intellectually stimulating, I did that bit after work.

Your friends and colleagues sound really unpleasant. Almost all of mothers in the baby groups I go to with DD are in their 20s and 30s. I wouldn't want to be a SAHM though. I enjoy it at the moment as DD is a baby, but I wouldn't want to put off my career.

My view is, always was and always will be: we should support women (especially) and families to achieve the balance that is right for them. And know that this balance changes over time.

My children went to nursery but I raised them

I agree with this, it’s toxic. I gave up a well paid banking job to be a SAHM and I’ve never regretted it.

I’ve been on the end of an awful lot of snide remarks about it ever since though. Ironically it took listening to a variety of (male) psychologist podcasts to make me feel really good about my decision.

Yes, raising (young) kids is a full time job, but it is not respected in this current stage of capitalism

Only money counts. That is why almost nobody respects stay at home parents, or people who do caring duties for family members (the young, the old, the sick)

it’s all about money now

I wonder where it will lead us to

Whereas i loathed being at home with small children and couldn't wait to get back to work. and even though their father was a SAHP i got a shit ton of (sometimes really nasty) comments about me abandoning my babies for money, and i was evil and they'd hate me forever.

People need to back the fuck off and support each other's decisions (as long as they're not dangerous)