The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

Presumably they'd have to work that out, like any other family decision. For instance, they might both work PT and stay home PT? I think you have put your finger on something there though - we talk about parents having choices, but there will need to be some constraints. Maybe families having choices would be a better way to phrase it?

You spend too much time online. Step away. You'll be happier for it.

You’re not simply responding, you’re point scoring. I’m perfectly happy for others to have their own view that’s one reason I enjoy coming here and learning from others experiences.

Once again you’ve run away with the idea that you know what I think. Did you miss the part where I said my OH my was ASAHD!!
Do you honestly think I’d have left the children with their father, if I didn’t trust him to parent well??

Where have I made it clear that I don’t consider that men are on a par with women in terms of parenting?
As it happens I do believe that when babies are very small it’s crucial for the mothers to build up that bond, so her time with the baby is vastly more important at that stage. Does that mean that I don’t believe men can look after a baby,no, I’m simply going on all the evidence that at that early stage babies need their mother for emotional regulation and protection from stress, both of which are crucial for brain development.

Yes I’m sure there’s a lot of women who are capable of seeing social media for what it is, but there’s also a lot who don’t. We wouldn’t have many of the problems we have if most women/men could see.
I think there’s women in their 30s now, who just about remember a time before the Internet and certainly a time before social media, who are adamant they won’t allow their kids to get pulled in, but I couldn’t say what that is as a percentage, because without research I wouldn’t presume to know.

Sorry if you thought i was suggesting being a mother wasn’t hard, or that children make life easier. It’s not really something I would ever say, so not sure where that came from?
I said more that I got a huge amount back from my children and still do. They certainly made my life better but a lot of that is due to things that happened to me as a child and I really found my confidence being a wife and mother, but I totally appreciate everyone’s story is different. We all have different backgrounds and demands on us and we do the best we can.

I'm not point scoring, I'm simply disagreeing with some of your views. And yes, I saw that your DH was a SAHP for a while, so what?You still seem excessively focused on mothers in your posts rather than fathers.

That's fine, you're entitled to your views. Others are entitled to disagree.

As for social media, I'm sure that you're right about many people lacking the critical thinking skills to be able to put things into perspective properly, but I would argue that that is an issue with our education system failing to teach essential skills for the modern age rather than a problem with how families manage the balance between careers and childcare etc.

You've made it pretty clear that you don't consider men to be on a par with women when it comes to parenting, and you're entitled to your view but others are entitled to disagree

If you can tell me where I’ve made it pretty clear I’d appreciate it?
To take your first point the “so what” as to my OH staying at home, was in response to your comment above that you determined it was

“pretty clear that you don’t consider men to be on a par with women when it comes to parenting”

therefore my reminder of him being a SAHD is relevant to your comment. You can’t ignore the relevance of that fact, in relation to your comment. I don’t see that anything is clear about my view. To suggest I’m excessive is strange, but if I have a tendency to talk from the mother’s perspective it’s hardly odd, given that I am a mother/woman and this forum is called mumsnet!!

And why do you keep insisting I have a problem with other peoples point of view ? Please show me where I’ve had a problem?

As regards your last comment I’d say that actually it’s both a family and education problem. Children are still the responsibility of their parents, teachers roles are incredibly stretched as is. I agree schools should be involved but the basic values and good behavioural influences have to start at home. Clearly there are always situations, where that will never be possible, but suggesting that it only lies with the education system is a little short sighted.

I am of course quite happy for you to disagree.

I had the distinct impression from reading several of your posts that you didn't consider men to be on a par with women when it comes to parenting. Honestly, though, I can't actually bothered to trawl through the thread looking for examples, so if you are telling me now that you consider men to be equally competent and important as parents, and that your comments apply equally to both mothers and fathers, then I apologise for misunderstanding you and I'm happy to stand corrected.

As to whether the question of your DH having been a SAHP is relevant...well, it doesn't really prove anything in my view. For all I know, he might have been a crap SAHP and this might have coloured your views about whether men are equally good at parenting as women. But as we have now established that you actually see no distinction between men and women as parents, it doesn't really matter.

Re social media, you have misunderstood my point. My fault, I perhaps didn't make it clear. I absolutely wasn't suggesting that teaching kids to think critically and to navigate online content sensibly is the job of schools rather than families. I completely agree that parents have a hugely important role in this. My point, which I obviously didn't express very well, was that the issue of critical thinking skills and teaching children to interact with online content in an intelligent and mindful manner belongs more in a discussion about how we educate our children and develop their critical thinking skills than it does in a discussion about the value of motherhood and debates about SAHP/WOHP etc.

If mothers are struggling with motherhood because of content that they're seeing on social media, I don't think that in itself necessarily says much at all about society's approach towards motherhood. I think it speaks far more about the fact that many adults have not been effectively equipped with the skills and perspectives to interact with online content in a wise and healthy manner.

Well as I haven’t commented in any meaningful way about the pros and cons of each sex in relation to parenthood, yes you formed an impression that was unfounded . The point about mentioning my SAHD was in reaction to your comment and that in my mind, it stands to reason if I held such “excessive” views as you suggested, there’s no way I’d leave my children with him. He was however a brilliant Dad and it worked well for us, allowing me to work my way up at work, until our situations changed.

You’ve said “we’ve now established that you see no distinction between men and women as parents”.
Once again you’re making an assumption! I made a distinction a few posts ago in relation to new borns, but that doesn’t equate to me being excessive or suggesting men can’t be good parents. It’s not as simple as men and women are the same across the different values of parenting, you must have seen that surely? No research or anyone who thought about it, would ever say that! Of course there are distinctions.

Just to clarify, the distinction I make is I believe men and women have different roles to play, have differing strengths and experiences
( which are due in part to their differing sex) and their importance to a child’s development, from birth to young adulthood changes. Children will need each parent more than the other, at different stages and this is backed by a mass of literature. We only have to look at what happens in families where the male parent lacks awareness of the importance of their role, to see the damage it can cause, particularly to males.

Hopefully that explains and clarifies the distinction I make, which comes from a recognition of roles and not an “excessive” or myopic view of women over men.

Yeah, I think your position is pretty clear from your latest post. You have stated that you think men and women have different roles to play and different strengths based on sex. That is pretty much what I had taken from your earlier posts. The rest is largely semantics.

We can agree to disagree.

What? You don’t think men and women bring different things to parenting, by virtue of their sex??? I’m genuinely interested in that.
It’s not really semantics is it,that would suggest that the distinctions I made are negligible or facile or that we’re effectively saying the same thing in different ways, which we aren’t. I’m not talking about the basic practicalities of parenting, that yes most men can or could do, but the fundamental issues around care.

I might be wrong, but I’ve taken your meaning as there’s no distinction between the role of men and women as parents, I don’t agree with that and I don’t believe that the literature would agree either.

So yes we would have to agree to disagree on that.

Women obviously carry the children during pregnancy. And some women breastfeed - I did, for an extended period, but many don't and many can't.

Other than that, no, I don't really think that there are significant differences, other than those that arise primarily from social conditioning. I think men and women are equally capable of nurturing young children and equally capable of providing for them etc.

The science disagrees with you. Hormones play a massive role in how men and women interact differently with children.

I think men and women are equally capable of nurturing young children and equally capable of providing for them etc”.

Yes I agree both can deliver good care.

“Other than that, no, I don't really think that there are significant differences, other than those that arise primarily from social conditioning“.

Just out of interest, do you think there are any differences between men and women then generally, apart from the obvious. Do you think our brains are the same?

I really struggle to believe this. If it were true, why is it so much more common for men to abandon their children than it is for women? I don't believe it's entirely down to social conditioning.

Maybe your wife left because she didn't want sex any more @Laidbackguy, or perhaps not sex with you. Spa days, petrol and DIY aren't really enough of a compensation for having someone you don't fancy poke their willy into your body. If you disagree, I would suggest you try it out.

Sorry, this turned into a rather long post with a bit of biological info, but bear with me; I do have a point to make.)

I'm an old Mumsnetter, back after several years. I so agree with the OP and it's something I've been observing for many years. It's as if the narrative has reversed itself: feminists used to talk about how women are indoctrinated into motherhood, and it was all brainwashing by society. Now, it's the other way around; young girls grow up with the narrative that motherhood is only for the weak and stupid and having a career instead it the way to go.

I was born in 1951 to a very early feminist mother; she divorced my father when I was three because he expected her to be a SAHM and she wanted to work. She was lucky: she had an unmarried homebody sister who lived with my gran, and so a built in, free, baby-sitter, and she could be away all day and know I was well taken care of. (We lived with them.)

I hated having a working mother. I was jealous of all my friends, who had homes with a mum who cooked meals and baked cakes, and I never had that; they also had fathers at home. I saw my dad frequently so that wasn't a problem, but I wanted a "proper" family. (This btw was in a distant British colony, a poor country. We were middle-middle-class.)

So I always wanted to have children and be a SAHM. This surprised people as I was etremely iindependent, travelling the world and doing very independent things as a young woman! But I wanted marriage and children above all. I never was interested in a career; work was just a way to earn money. My mother was quite well known in our home country as an activist for women's rights and other noble causes. She was held up as a golden example for me. But I didn't want that. We never really got close, though I know she loved me and I loved her. She spoiled me in many ways, escpecially (later) with my desire to travel. But we lacked closeness.

I did eventually marry, a good man who was happy for me to be a SAHM. But here's the interesting bit: he was German, we lived in Germany, and the tax laws in Germany are very friendly to one-working-parent families. You're put into a tax class which basically pays the non-working parent the equivalent of a small salary. This was wonderful and I think other Western countries should consider something like it. It really works.

But I was astonished at how some of my non-German female friends mocked me (this was the 80s and 90s), and even my German ones. One of them, every time she saw me, made some comment as to how my mind would turn rusty or to mush because I was at home all day....

Happy to say that my daughter, now in her early 30s, and I have a very close relationship. She is also a SAHM and very involved with her own two little girls.

Edited for typos.

To add to my last post above: Germany also takes retirement/divorce under consideration when it comes to SAHM. A mother (or father) gets retirement points for all the years she stayed at home to look after children. Should the parents divorce, he has to pay her a chunk of his pension. This is VERY strictly adhered to. I was my husband's second wife; he had to pay his first wife about €1600 of his monthly pension when he retired! And now, as a widowed retiree myself, I also get a chunk of extra governement pension simply be dint of my SAHM years.
All of this is a great financial motivation for mothers (or fathers) to spend a few years with their kids at home.

I'd like to offer my threepence worth with a scenario about why motherhood is devalued:

Woman goes to a job interview. The pleasant interviewer sets the scene of what this job entails:

"Now, I must tell you this job is for life. There's no probation period, no leaving, not much holiday and no final salary pension or any pension to speak of at the end. Oh, and I should add - there's no salary. But don't worry, you'll love it.

"The first nine months does entail some changes - notably extreme weight gain, aches and pains, occasionally a spell in hospital - all entirely normal.

"At about nine months there'll be an extremely painful event, which doesn't last long I promise. There is a possibly of death, but that hardly even happens so don't dwell on that. After nine months, the job starts proper and you'll be working with a colleague who can't speak or go to the toilet by themselves. There's no clocking off at six o clock, I'm afraid. You'll need to be on call all the time because this is a very responsible job. Extreme fatigue will become normal after a while, you'll see.

"Now, you may find that other colleagues and partners in the firm go off you big time when you're fully ensconced in the job. That means you're probably doing a very good job. If they happen to leave (which is in their contract but not yours), you'll need to handle everything. You'll be a complete asset!

"Your new colleague will go through enormous changes, as will you, but theirs will include being able to go to the toilet on their own. That's a huge benefit of this job. I can't guarantee that your colleague will support you or even like you - that's not in their contract. When you get very tired from this job, and you will, your colleague may take a contract somewhere else and never come back.

"Don't worry, because you may get some more new colleagues who can't speak or go to the toilet by themselves much later down the line. This is in your contract so this job will continue up until when you're almost dead.

"Er, that will do for starters. I've missed a whole lot out, but we work this job just one day at a time and never reveal the full extent of it, otherwise no-one would agree to do it. Did I say there was no salary? Any questions?"

Woman: "No questions. I don't want the job."

Interviewer: "Oh dear, and you seemed such a good candidate. Now if it helps, I can offer you this hormone in tablet form, which will make you really want the job. Wouldn't that be wonderful!"

Woman: "Sorry. I really don't want this job. I'm off now to have a life. Goodbye."

Sadly, IMO the value of good parenting is beyond measure. If you could pay a SAHM/SAHP roughly 60-80K for the job per annum that may increase the value of the role because of our Capitalist society.

Like the woman above, I could never take the job and I lacked any kind of hormone that would convince me it was a good idea. No regrets.