The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

I agree there are societal issues (unaffordable housing and childcare etc) but some women really do just not want children and think motherhood as a lifestyle looks pretty crap, in the same way as living a nomadic life in a van doesn’t appeal to everyone. I’m not sure why some people are insinuating this can’t be the case and they must just be trying to convince themselves they don’t want it because they haven’t met a nice man to have kids with (seriously what a regressive take). I don’t think mothers should be shamed or derided but nor do I think women who don’t want, or dislike the idea of motherhood, should be stopped from expressing their opinion. It’s no worse than all the stupid stuff that gets said to childfree people by parents.

I completely agree OP. I've struggled to put it into words before but I think you've nailed it with the devaluation of motherhood. I especially feel this with the race to get women back into work (and to being tax payers) by promoting free childcare as early as possible despite the many drawbacks for both mothers and children.

I know for many it's a necessity not a choice, and that is a different discussion as I firmly believe there should be mechanisms in place to facilitate this also. However, there is a real reluctance to acknowledge that in the majority of circumstance children are better off not being in a childcare setting for the majority of their day/week. This extends to wrap around car for primary aged children too.

I'm a staunch feminist and can't understand how hard society makes it to be a mother, and how looked down upon it is to want that to be a significant part of your life especially when children are young.

Completely agree with this. A lot of condescending attitudes here that women don't understand what they're missing and will regret it. Or that if circumstances were perfect (cheaper childcare, lower housing prices, etc) women would have more kids, when the decreasing birth rate is happening nearly everywhere, including places where those issues do not exist.

People (for the first time in history?) look at raising children as optional and many don't want to. I don't think that has anything to do with looking down on mothers or motherhood or stay-at-home motherhood.

Simply put: plenty of people don't want kids, or don't want them enough to make it happen even in imperfect circumstances. I would love the amazing cheap childcare and child-related tax breaks my friend in Paris has access to, yet she loves her job, flexibility and hobbies too much to want to use them.

Yes! It was sooo drummed in. Just looking at an unsheathed thing could result in pregnancy in the 90s. And getting pregnant and having children was the worst thing ever. My (neurodivergent and comes out with all sorts) brother still talks like this...'all she's achieved in her life is having children'. That 'pramface' way of thinking.

Having had children, I honestly think that if I'd had them young, it would also have been really nice.

I also suspect a lot more people have stopped believing that you can "have it all" with careers and motherhood or they know that at least they don't have the headspace or energy to do both.

I think it's just a pushback and reaction to the massive societal pressure on women to have kids.

@Justanything86

I think you're 37, same as me? It's one reason I moved to Japan actually, men here are more stable and society helps facilitate having a family.

I'm actually married and pregnant - and due to a few factors including location, I'm not working right now. So I'm listed at my husbands company as 'dependent' on him, and THEY pay my pension and NI contributions for me! So if I decided to be a SAHM I don't have to worry about these things.

Husband is a real sweetheart too - wouldn't have married him otherwise!

I was married in the UK once and to this day I don't even know IF he ever wanted children, I remember him being incredulous at a male friend of ours having a child, dynamic was so different....

Not having children isn't bad either tbf, just a different way of life, but I do think that the average British man does NOT take family life seriously

Interesting. One of the reasons that I didn't want to stay in Japan, much as I love the place, was because of the comparatively low status of women in Japanese society. I guess I can see the attraction if you're looking for a more traditional set-up, but it wouldn't suit everyone.

@Noicant

oh I couldn’t do that, I need to work for my braaaain” ignoring the fact that most peoples jobs are repetitive and aren’t extraordinary intellectual endeavours providing constant stretch and expanding the sum total of human knowledge

🤣🤣🤣🤣

This is spot on 10/10. I have 2 science degree's and jobs that didn't require education past age 11....

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

That's really interesting - when were you here ? I've heard other women say this (some real shocking stories too) so I know it's a thing, but in my 7 years and I'm on my third marriage now (second in Japan ) I've never encountered an inch of inequality

It may have moved on now, and I sincerely hope it has, as it's 20 years since I left, but it was incredibly sexist back then so I'd be very surprised if that had disappeared overnight. My Japanese friends definitely don't seem to think that the problem has gone away...

We’re all just workers now. Our children are future workers looked after by other current workers. Anyone not in work is shamed. The media churns out regular articles to make sure we all remember that.

The economy is touted as the most important thing in life but not many realise it only benefits the rich, or they hear that and think it’s “crazy conspiracy theory”.

Meanwhile families barely have time or energy to have any quality time together without feeling stressed rushing around preparing for the next day of work. Grandparents are still at work in some cases!

I can see why it wouldn’t appeal to young people.

Hmm. This info from statista wouldn't appear to back up your view that there isn't an inch of inequality....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1227300/japan-gender-gap-index/#:~:text=In%202023%2C%20the%20overall%20gender,far%20behind%20other%20G7%20nations.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Oh I'm sure it hasn't! I think I've just had a combination of good luck mingled with things slowly changing

I think if you want a high up position / serious career then the odds are still stacked against you, but with the outing of the Tokyo Medical School scandal (women had to score higher to get a place at the same uni) and a few others, things are improving

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Yeah, I didn't say there isn't an inch of inequality

I said I've never encountered an inch of inequality

They're different statements

or don't want them enough to make it happen even in imperfect circumstances

I've watched some Stephen Shaw birth gap guy interviews going on about epidemic of unplanned childlessness - and thought exactly the above it's clearly not been a priority but something people he researched assume would just happen at some imaginary time when everything was perfect.

I do think there's some odd society messaging going on though. DH and I had been together a decade finished education married got savings and life experience behind us but were still renting when had first two DC - which really upset our families. DSis had bought but not married which was apparently more acceptable.

Three years later we bought and DH family were upset again as it was a three bed family house - they were really off with with us as hadn't followed what they did getting small 2 up 2 down then trade up even though we were decade older and already bigger family. By then Dis was single parent and has rented privately and with HA ever since - which no one bats an eye at.

Fair enough. You've obviously been lucky.

Though I think things are different if you're a foreigner in any case. I always felt that things were much easier for me than they were for Japanese women because the same expectations didn't apply.

@TripleDaisySummer

Lol what very specific things for your families to get miffed about 🤣

Going to look up Stephen Shaw now, sounds interesting!

I think they thought buying a house was a basic requirement for becoming parents and not still renting. I think it because that what they all did before house price boom.

IL did not want us to start higher up on housing ladder than they did - think there were some fear over over stretching overserves (and crab bucket not getting above ourselves)

Think in both cases it was not realising things had seriously changed since they were same age partly due to much higher housing costs but also less job security so we were still moving round for permanent jobs.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

It's an interesting place to live anyway, although I'll always miss England, which I think is a better country to live long term than Japan

My ILs were absolutely horrified that we got engaged before either of us bought a house. I remember MIL kept saying "but they've got nowhere to live" 😂

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Things changed so much between our and our parents generation!

I think there are pros and cons in each tbh. We do still miss aspects of living there. I haven't been back in over 10 years now, but DH was over for an extended period last year and said that things had changed quite a lot...some in a positive way, others not so much! Whereabouts are you?

Yes motherhood is demonised everywhere.

You get mobbed on here if you want to be a SAHM, society at large wants you back in work ASAP after having a baby, despite the terrible nurseries and schools, abuse, bullying and poor SEN provision.

Women are expected to do it all meanwhile children have spiralling mental health. The family unit is fractured. Children are expected to be in childcare from 8am to 6pm or longer every day and then to do homework!
It's outrageous. All mothers should have a basic income from 25 weeks pregnancy to age 12 minimum.

Society is crumbling, people are getting fatter and more miserable and on top of all that, it's "dogs are better behaved than kids!" And children are being pushed out of public life.

Yes it's abhorrent.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I'm in a small dying town on the coast of the north sea of Japan - Niigata prefecture.

Weather is absolutely terrible here, not like sunny Tokyo 🤣

I do love the nature here in warmer months, and the stability (low crime etc) but there are more people aged over 100 in this town than under 1 - so it's an hours drive to a maternity equipped hospital