The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is the perception that the maternity care in the U.K. is really awful now and that you’re at risk of ill treatment, no treatment, denial of pain relief, death or disability of you and your infant. There have been lots of news articles about unsafe maternity services and the Ockenden enquiries etc. I’ve heard this mentioned as a reason by younger women. It seems to me that people are genuinely scared now of anything that might make them need medical treatment!

Sounds a bit isolating to me. I never lived in Tokyo though we were in one of the bigger cities for a few years. Also did a bit of small town living for a while, which was lovely in its own way...lots of random strangers presenting me with free vegetables from their allotments!

But I reckon the weather was probably better where we were!!!

The low fertility rates in Japan tell their own story, I suppose. Women are making choices.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Yeah well it explains why I'm not working atm - but we're hoping for a couple back to back pregnancies over the end of my fertility window so I'm not fussed right now. :)

My parents are 50 so my DD will be an adult by the time my parents retire.

Argh wrong thread!

Suzanne Venker has a lot to say about this. I found her podcasts very helpful when I became a SAHM.

You see it on mumsnet a lot people saying things like “oh I couldn’t do that, I need to work for my braaaain” ignoring the fact that most peoples jobs are repetitive and aren’t extraordinary intellectual endeavours providing constant stretch and expanding the sum total of human knowledge.

This annoys me as well. I work PT at what's actually a fairly intellectual job. I find my brain is more engaged and exercised on the days I'm with my kids. They change all the time, and all the time I have to work out what they need and how best to provide it. It's so much more than changing nappies. My three year old is immensely curious about the whole world and I've learnt plenty of new things just answering her questions. And then I've got the intellectual exercise of trying to pass on those explanations in three year old friendly language! And while this might not be quite the same with a younger child, I do spend time planning and doing play aimed towards helping her development - that engages my brain certainly as much as my job does.

Maybe all these people who have to work for their brain have much more engaging jobs than me! (I wouldn't like to suggest that they have less interesting children, but I suppose that's the other option.)

Working to have a rest/ give my brain a break, now that I can agree with. (I actually feel like we've got a brilliant set up - we both work and both are what I think of as a PT SAHP. So one of us is around all the time, but we do both get a change and a break.)

My two DDs are not having children apparently. I take it with a pinch of salt because my BFF at uni was the same and she was deeply entrenched in that view into her thirties and she has two and seems happy with her lot. Things can change or maybe they won’t.

It is women who are devalued. Mothers are a subset of that but the devaluing of mothers is just another way to hit out at women. Where I live there is still a very strong cultural mother figure (Irish Mammy) but even with this strong matriarch archetype there is misogynist undertones. Women are viewed as lesser across almost every culture I’ve ever been exposed to.

A lot of the nasty comments you read on the internet are fake. Forums and media outlets rely on drumming up conflict.

I didn't choose children or a career, I'm the lowest of the low 😁

For me, I married very young and felt so much pressure as soon as we were married to "pull my finger out" and produce babies very publicly and in a very humiliating way. Apart from being too young to consider it I had a gynae issue i didnt want to disclose to anyone except my dh and dm. I honestly had to be very vocal about expressing disgust at the idea of babies, otherwise, yet another newborn neice of nephew would be forced into my arms, with cooing aunts declaring that the baby suited me. By protesting too much, some women might be trying to get the message across to back away from their fertility choices or issues. They might just be rude dickheads who are forgetting that the my body my choice mantra also applies to women who want children. A lot of people judge if irresponsible choices are made - more babies than you can afford etc, which is another argument altogether.

Thanks for this thread. I've been noticing the increasingly bleak prospectus for motherhood and it spurred me to set up a twitter/X for this. Please consider following (and sending me examples you see, although Jeepers we're not short of material...)

End of the human race my arse. There are way too many humans on this planet. Look at the below population growth chart.

God I don't come across this attitude at all. When someone brings a baby into work everyone is crowding around cooing.

This.
Or just nasty people who want an outlet for their venom whatever it is.

When you think about it feminism has often denigrated or devalued anything related to femininity or the traditional female role. Men have never been as judgmental and critical of women as modern feminism.

I sometimes wonder if these sentiments come from the same place as the hostility often directed towards high earners on here - i.e. a kind of envy. I've definitely seen quite a few posters say they would choose to be reborn a man if they had the option. This would possibly explain the self loathing attitude towards femininity and the hostility towards men, especially 'masculine' men.

Very interesting thread: thanks for starting it.

OP: how much extended family help do you have? It also sounds like you may have an easy baby.

Our son is a complete live wire, has been since he was in utero and he’s now on the waiting list for ADHD assessment. No family support. He’s a sweet, lovely boy but at times I’ve found it very, very hard - really bone-crushingly exhausting. I became depressed and it’s taken a significant toll on my marriage too. Both sets of GPs utterly uninterested in any meaningful way - this has caused me to reflect in a very serious way on my own parents’ cavalier attitude to some matters during my own upbringing, which has made me really angry. This, in turn, has required therapy and a lot of soul-searching.

Motherhood is the one thing I think that it’s difficult to say how you’ll fare/feel about it until you do it. Impossible to predict. A pal of mine was also a very high-flying lawyer, gave up work to become a SAHP and now has 5 kids under 8. That would be my idea of hell but she seems happy.

@EvelynBeatrice the UK’s shit maternity services aren’t a “perception”: they’re a reality; there wouldn’t be an enquiry otherwise.

Motherhood is objectively a poor choice for women. In terms of independence, financial security, safety in relationships, physical and mental health- by almost any measure you could choose, women who have babies are worse off than women who don’t, and than men. Until young women vocally and meaningfully reject that option, in large enough numbers to have an impact on men, nothing will change. We need this to happen. It’s a good thing.

The way women view motherhood seems to be cyclical. At the moment, everything is so expensive that having kids must feel like a lifestyle choice for young women. The tale as old as time is that many will change their minds in their thirties thanks to hormones.

Who do you suggest should go?

Ok... Why do so many women desperately, desperately want a baby then? I've heard women say things as strong as they feel their life is "meaningless" because they can't have children. That after TTC, their career just felt empty and futile. Their words, not mine. And then the moment they've had children, they've begged their partners to let them just stay at home with their child and not go back to work. Do you think they just need to be more sensible and stop pursuing something that they long for so much, that would make them so happy, because it won't materially benefit them and children are just parasites that rob you of your health? Or do you think this intense desire for a child is just because they've been brainwashed by men (men who, curiously, are so much more likely to be the ones pressurising women into abortions, and delaying having children until later in life because they don't want to lose their freedoms).

Because some women desperately want a baby, some feel an enormous emotional pull towards motherhood, and some don’t, it’s not any great mystery. It’s unlikely for that reason that all young women will reject motherhood, but as we can see from the amount of panicked commentary right now when around 20% are, it doesn’t need to be all women.