The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

Why is it misogynistic to say point out a common trait?

We need to stop taking complex problems and just letting people assign simple solutions to them because they fit their political narrative. It's not helping anyone.

I wasn’t coming up with a solution, at all

It’s misogynistic to lump all female thought into the umbrella term “feminism”.

It’s lazy, reductive and misogynistic.

How do we account ... ?

As follows.

Marriage benefits men, disbenefits women. But men don't notice, they just accept the unfairness, bolstered in this by their (often unconscious, but still) traditional views of sexed roles. Women, being disbenefited, are more likely to notice. Result? ...

(Think about it. Your own marriage, @Laidbackguy. You were doing - as you thought - fine; your wife, not so much. So she left. Why?)

What needs to be changed? This: men like you start to see how (contrary to what they may think) traditional sex roles in marriage still benefit them unfairly, and try to do something about it.

This is hard, of course. Even those men who pay lip-service to equality of role in family life are conditioned to leave much of the 'wife-work' to, well, the wife. And so it continues: some of the wives in question don't like it; they leave, and their poor - still uncomprehending - men wonder why.

Some optimism. I have daughters, happily married, middle aged, with children, and also with successful and fulfilling careers. How so? -They made rules for their partners denying certain accepted roles and stick to them.

This stick to them is important: e.g. if it's on the list the man does the washing and ironing, but he has an interfering hobby-weekend, then the kids go to school in dirty clothes the following week. That's hard for the women, of course. (And the grandparents!) But it does seem to work. Takes lots of psychological effort (of course by the women, possibly also the men). But it does seem to work (with carefully chosen men, perhaps!).

Eventually ... well, look at certain parts of Scandinavia: not there yet, by a long chalk, but on the way; certainly better than UK (or USA, aargh!) ... Societal change is called for, but meanwhile (and influentially, we hope) individual men and women can make a start against (still) extant socially discriminatory roles.

(Does this make sense, @Laidbackguy? Did you do at least half the 'wife-work'? Really?)

As you've asked:

I took the traditional male role, I renovated our home single handed, I did all the DIY, the gardening, her car was cleaned and fueled. I also provided, with her paying little if anything towards our family living costs despite earning a good salary.

I put her first, orgiased treats like spa days with her girlfriends and theater trips, she received flowers most months, provided hair / nail appointment etc. On top of that I was the primary parent when home, made sure she had time to herself. I was happy to cook / clean / wash.

Were there things which she did that I didn't typically? I guess some, but mainly thoses where she wanted to micro manage or didn't like the way I used a washing machine.

I worked jolly hard to be a good dad, provider and husband.

Why did she leave?

It's hard to say, working in an environment which was solely female and had a very strong victim culture probably didn't help.

Maybe after so many years of getting everything on a plate she stopped recognising what she got from the relationship?

Possibly it's a mental health thing? She has never been a happy person and we've had a life together of shed be happy if only we had..... a nicer car, the big house, more holidays..... all of which are temporary. I guess eventually she's decided to try ending our relationship as that's what's making her unhappy?

Her having career success seems to be a factor, it seems she maybe felt she's had what she wanted / needed and now after a lot of support from me / my family has got to where she wanted to be.

She'd started a plan to alinent my son from me which as he'd always been closer to me than her didn't work thankfully.

As an aside, if your daughter came home and said their husbands had set out a number of rules for them to follow would you be OK with this?

“traditional male role”

that didn’t include the following? (whilst your wife was also working?)
childcare: constant 7am-7pm when children 0-5
food : shopping, preparation, serving, clearing
housework : cleaning, tidying, hoovering, changing beds, washing, drying, ironing
generic wifework: kidmin re schools, birthdays, Christmas etc

Gardening, DIY and fuelling a car pale into insignificance compared to the daily mind numbing servant like grunt work above.

Any man that whines that they’ve had many years of free labour as above has absolutely no sympathy from me at all. As for a “profitable” outcome, that’s incredible and well done her. If it is in fact the case. I wonder what it’d cost weekly to have all the above outsourced?

My wife had 3 years off work followed by 2 years working part time when we had our son.

During and after this time when I was home most nights I cooked, we had a cleaner who also ironed. Did the majority of school runs, home work and shopping.

And by DIY I took our home back to brick and re-plastered/wired/plumbed from top to bottom. Completing 90% the work myself and paying all costs.

Throughout our marriage I consistently worked significantly more hours than my wife paid the significant majority of costs and pulled my weight in the home.

As for the outsourcing cost, I did pay or complete most of them myself.....

I know what you mean op, but I’ve only really seen it across social media, not in real life
(but then I don’t hang around with 20 something year olds tbf)

If you don’t want kids, that’s not an issue, nobody really cares, but stop going on about it 🤣

I’m a sahm & nobody has made sneering comments about my choice to not go back to work after mat leave (not to my face anyway!)

I see a lot of shitty comments on social media (and on mn) where people say things like “ oh I could never be a sahm, I’d be bored out of my mind” or “I could never do that, I need to use my brain”
The comments are quite unnecessary & almost sound defensive. It’s on a par with “I could never send my kids to nursery, I want to raise my own kids” or “I’m a full time mum” in response to a mum who chooses to go back to work

I wish we as women, would be kinder to one another, instead of tearing another down to validate your own choice. It’s really not helpful.

So how much would it have cost to have someone mind your baby from age 0-3 from 7am - 7pm? I’m guessing you didn’t do the night feeds either.

My DH is fabulous at DIY and has done a similar amount to you, so I know exactly what this looks and feels like to a family. It means that whilst the DIY is going on, the wife is left alone with the baby/toddler to do everything - but that’s ok because the husband is “doing DIY for the benefit of all the family”. DH does it because he loves it. And it absents him from the responsibility of having to do anything else. Jolly nice for him, but would have been much better for me if he’d paid someone to do it so I could’ve got some help from him. It’s sad that men really seem to be so ostrich like about what the mother of their children actually have to do, day in day out.

A nanny, as assume a childminder is only appropriate for age 5+, is average £13.50 per hour. So 12 hours a day 7am-7pm (not sure how lunch break etc work and if anyone is in fact allowed to do a 12 hour shift) is £162 a day, let’s say x 5 days if you are looking after them at the weekend. And let’s leave off holiday fees, pension, Nat ins and other employer costs. That’s £3,645 a month.

Having a cleaner sounds good. Assume they came for what 3 hours per week? In reality, a mother is probably cleaning an hour a day minimum - plus washing, changing beds etc add another hour so 2 hours x 7 days x £12 an hour = £756 a month.

How about food planning, preparation , cooking and cleaning away? Did you say you did that every evening? I don’t think so. Let’s say that is an hour a day x 7 days x £12 an hour = £378 a month.

So leaving off kidmin and other generic wifework that’s around £4,779 a month that you should have paid your wife when your DS was pre school, if I have that right?

So in summary:
I worked on average 55 hours a week, on an equal time rotation (16hr/days x 7 days), when I was home I was the primary parent, I did plenty of night feeds, nappies, school runs, after school clubs, cooking etc. etc.

I took on the traditional male role and paid for 90% of our life, even when my wife went back to work in a well paid job she never really resumed any meaningful contribution to our living costs other than paying for the family holiday.

In addition I was the main parent doing 75% of the parent stuff when I was home. I did night feeds, nappies, baths etc. On top of this I re-built our home contributing both all material costs and labour.

As a very active dad (after separation I have equal custody) I know very well the work that goes in to being a parent so you don't really need to lecture on that. The fact you compare parenting to construction tells me you've clearly not spent much time behind a wheelbarrow or shovel.

Going to you numbers:

Realistically raising one child, cooking meals, cleaning, shopping etc up to the age of 4 occouped 4-5 hours of my day. A chunk of which was doing fun stuff like being at soft play, biking or swimming. When he went to school this dropped dramatically to around 3-4 hours a day.

So if we treat my ex like a paid employee, she'd need to be paid 12 hours a day. But she'd only work 62.5% of the time so that's £2278.

If we're following your logic i'd be owed 37.5% of the £3654 for parenting or £1366.

I roughly I spent 15hrs a week x 2 weeks a month doing blue stuff (DIY etc) sp thats £405 to add to my £1366.

The other stuff I easily managed to do in the 4-5 hours a day of being a parent so those figures are nonsense. Unless getting paid double time for doing more than one task has suddenly become a thing?

My labour at home - £1771. Her labour at home - £2278. On top of this I worked a full time job and paid 90% of living costs.

@Laidbackguy your figures don’t add up - at all.

”Realistically raising one child, cooking meals, cleaning, shopping etc up to the age of 4 occouped 4-5 hours of my day. A chunk of which was doing fun stuff like being at soft play, biking or swimming. When he went to school this dropped dramatically to around 3-4 hours a day.”

Let’s take this para as an example. So you spent 4-5 hours a day looking after your DS when you got in from work? You must have got home very early or he stayed up very late? Most babies/toddlers are asleep by about 7pm? And your wife spent his other 8-9 waking hours looking after him.

Shouldn’t think he was biking aged 2. Not sure I’d class swimming, biking and soft play as “fun”.

When he went to school, hmm. So whoever took him to school at 8.45am then had til 2.45pm or whenever “off” during term time.

What happened in the school holidays? Six weeks over the summer if state educated? Who looked after him then? I’m assuming you didn’t leave him home alone when he was at primary, so another 6 years from 5-11?

Very very hard for the mother to get a decently paid job that allows for this level of working hours flexibility. So her earning power decreases further as she is out of the decent paying jobs market for longer.

If you actually read what I've said, I worked away on an equal time rota - I was away for 3 weeks, home for 3 weeks.

When I was home for 3 weeks I did 75% of the parenting - which occupied 4-5hrs a day.

I had a bike trailer, don't think they're uncommon. He had a little seat on wheels?

My ex was a teacher, latterly a head teacher - her hours fitted well.

In school holidays we continued with me doing 75% when home.

I know this doesn't fit your world view, but lots of dads work bloody hard at work and then work very hard at home too.

Ahhh she was a teacher, yes that makes a massive difference. As does you doing 75% of childcare when you were not working but zero when you were.

Many women aren’t teachers and don’t want to work in schools. So that affects my world view.

Yes, as I said quite clearly I did 37.5% of the pareinting.

I'm not sure if it's a wind up or you genuinely believe being a SAHM to a single healthy child (which she was for 3 years) is equivalent to a full time job.

Wow. Being a SAHM to a “single healthy child” for 3 years - presumably aged 0-3 is a full time job?! Sure, some people outsource it at around £400 a day. But it’s still a full time job. You can’t work at the same time, can you? People tend to look down on screaming babies and breastfeeding during board meetings.

You seem to be missing that I did it? When I was home I was a SAHD?

4hrs a day is not full time, they were great years and I dont get why so many women are bitter about getting to do something that very few men do.

Bitter? Ok.

Sad that it’s accepted that women are expected to give up their careers. Saying you’re a SAHD 50% of the time is a joke, tbf. You were facilitated to do that by having a wife prepared to pick up the other 50% (well, more than that, as you say). You would not have been able to do your job if you were a single parent. Or you’d have been paying c £2-4K a month to outsource it.

Someone’s bitter here for sure but it ain’t the women 😂

How did this conversation get hijacked by an angry men’s rights activist intent on lecturing women that it’s all our own fault (evil feminism!) and that we’re all ungrateful because we’ve had everything handed to us?

This is Mumsnet, not Twitter 😂

See now this is where you’re wrong. For many, many women there is no biological urge. Historically we would have to hold our noses and have them anyway, but not anymore.

In 1951 my Mother got married to my Dad who was a professional man. As she was also a professional she stayed at work. She was ridiculed for it socially.

She didn't have a baby for 9 years till 1960. She was ridiculed for it socially.

She had 2 children eventually but was a stay at home mum always. In the 70s, she was ridiculed for it socially.

Once we were grown up, having dealt with my brothers severe mental health issues for years, she had no skills to return to the workplace. She was ridiculed for it socially.

I ended up as a single parent in the mid 90s due to husband running out on me. I was ridiculed for it socially.

My second marriage was DV. I got out eventually and we had nothing. So poor. I was ridiculed for it socially.

Now in my 60s, I don't own a house and have been single for years. I never recovered financially. Guess what?

It's women who are not valued. As mothers or not.

I don't think there is much point into getting dragged into discussions about one individual persons marriage/divorce. I will say that whilst the majority of divorces are initiated by women, that completely flips when cancer enters the equation. Specifically separation/divorce is 6 times more likely when the wife is the one with cancer than when the husband is. Thats not to say rahhh all men bad. Lots of men do stay and nurse their spouses through their illness - but it does rather put paid to the idea that women are more fickle/more ready to give up on a marriage when the going gets tough that some people try to imply with the "majority of divorces are initiated by women."

In reality - that statistic doesn't account for cases where divorce might be a mutual agreement but someone has to initiate. Doesn't account for cases where one partner moves out/initiates the separation but doesn't want to initiate the divorce because there's no benefit to them in doing so, doesn't account for cases where one person's behaviour is so unreasonable that the other person feels they have no option but to divorce. "X percent of divorces are initiated by Y" literally just tells you who did the paperwork.

Sorry but why has a thread on motherhood become all about one guy’s failed fucking marriage?

To bring the topic back on track, I think that motherhood in particular isn't valued but even more so caring responsibilities/caring work isn't either. Its partly that we do live in a capitalist society and while caring can be a profession (and should be better paid) it is also impossible to quantify its importance in monetary terms. e.g. no-one would want a disabled child for the sweet sweet disability/carers benefits. Even if those were (as they actually should be) more generous the main motivation for people (mostly women) to care for their children/disabled adult children/ill spouses/elderly parents aren't financial and shouldn't be.

So how do you put adequate value on something like that in a world where money/income is the principal value and has a massive impact on your security/quality of life/ability to make choices. I know that some (men) will say that they see motherhood as the most important/most privileged job someone can have. But that's a bit like paying nurses/emergency workers in claps. It doesn't have any real world benefit.

Incidentally unpaid carers save the UK about 60 BILLION a year. If everyone said "right I'm not doing this anymore" it would bankrupt the NHS overnight. (It would also be of course awful for the people needing care). Its not financially possible for those people to be adequately compensated for the benefit they bring to society. Fortunately of course, most carers are motivated by love so will keep going regardless. Just like mothers. So you are left with a situation where a role is so important, we can't afford to value it. And because (predominantly women) "choose" to do these roles (out of love/duty) it doesn't matter because they will keep doing it anyway and we can all agree the gender pay gap is down to women's choices. Until there is a crisis in (paid) care work because no-one enters the profession as its so poorly compensated, or a decrease in the birth rate, or an elderly care crisis. When we can again blame on women's choices.