The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

they’re will no doubt be things here many won’t agree with and that’s ok but I do feel quite strongly about some things so here goes.

You know I think this is the problem. Mothers are made to believe that having a career is a necessity or you’re somehow not quite fulfilling yourself. But you see most women do end up wanting children and this is where it comes undone.
I really am unsure that it’s possible to have a career and have kids and enjoy the experience. You’re cramming in the work hours, exhausted and then getting home and are expected to be super mum too. I wonder if it’s why many women on here and elsewhere have misgivings or don’t enjoy the experience of motherhood.
I think it’s usually motherhood that gets slammed and not working. I don’t see many comments on here about how awful work is but I see a lot about how awful motherhood is.

I do wonder if it’s all just too late. And it’s children that are sacrificed in place of a career. Before you know what’s happening you’re heading into a career then kids come, they get left at Nursery that we’ve convinced ourselves is actually better than being with a SAHM (we can hardly tell ourselves anything different, cos there’s no choice, but look at the evidence and it might surprise you).
No wonder women feel burned out and while men can be a great support, I’m sorry but they’re not women. I’m not saying they can’t make great parents, but there’s some care in my mind especially at the beginning, that is female led, but there seems to be a growing feeling of what I can only call resentment that I as a mother have to do and support/care for my kids more than my OH. And again I think some of this stems from being burnt out, but I’ve seen this resentment even from new mothers who are at home not back to work yet and their OHs are working full time but expecting their OH to get up several times a night to feed the baby “because it’s only fair”, but why have both of you knackered, doesn’t make sense to me.

@naanaa I don't think having children makes life easier. It certainly hasn't in my case. It has however, made it better at least for me. However, being a mother is hard. It is hard if you are at home not earning an income. It is hard if you are also trying to work.
I think talking about the benefits of children is a great idea. But the line pushed by some posters (not you) is that women regret choosing career over children because working is hard (and by implication just staying home with the kids is easy, women don't know how good they had it). I think that is part of the whole problem with the devaluation of motherhood. This sneering sense that it is easy so women should do it but don't expect any respect because it isn't actually like proper work.

I’m going to have to ask.

What are these ’sneering comments’?

I’ve never in my life heard anyone say anything bad about mothers, so I just can’t imagine this at all.

Have you not noticed how people talk about childless / free women?
Compared to that, is this ’devaluation of motherhood’ (I really don’t understand what this is supposed to mean tbh) that bad / even an actual thing?

For me I have a fulfilling career and adult children and no regrets
So it is possible

Not sure if you’re suggesting I said being a mother was easy? Don’t recall saying that. In fact I would never say that.
i worked full time juggled kids round my OH’s working times and muddled through it all somehow.
I’d honestly say that being a mum was way harder than my career. I eventually became too unwell to continue working and I have to say while I’m obviously not grateful that my life’s been blighted by illness, I am really grateful that I did then get to spend time with my children I’d have never had.
I know at least two women now in their 50-60s who decided to wait until they reached a point in their careers when it was convenient to settle down and have kids. They got so wrapped up in their careers it never happened and they both regret it and feel they were led down an impossible path.
I think again the problem is women who stay at home for the most part are the odd ones out now. Other people can’t appreciate what it takes unless they’ve experienced motherhood.
My OH was a stay at home man for a while and he never undervalued motherhood again.

I really disagree with you that it isn't possible to have a fulfilling career and happy thriving children, and to enjoy the experience. I did exactly that.

I have enjoyed a very successful and rewarding career and I have absolutely loved being a mum to my now adult dc. I have no regrets at all. It worked brilliantly for us, and I'm glad that I've given my dd a model for combining work and family that will give her the confidence that she won't have to choose one or the other.

I know loads of women who have successfully combined parenthood and family. I really don't think it's helpful when people insist it isn't possible. Fine if you don't want to do it yourself, or if there are specific reasons why you personally couldn't make it work, but please don't try to make other women feel like they have to choose one or the other. It is absolutely possible to be a loving and effective parent while pursuing your own ambitions and dreams.

No. I agree with you - I just wasn't expressing myself right. The fact is that it is hard (not impossible) to balance working with raising children. Its also hard, in a different way, to be a stay at home mum for long periods of time. Like you said, men in particular but also some women struggle to actually appreciate the work involved unless they do it. What I suppose I do object to is the idea that women aren't having children because they are choosing the easy/selfish way (prioritising career). Or the idea that when women do decide they want children its because they find work too hard/want a break. You weren't saying that but the poster you were quoting was definitely implying that. He's a broken record but I do think some people really think like that in the real world as well. Actually, it completely misses what motivates women to have children in the first place.

I do disagree with you about the sleeping/who gets up in the night thing. Yes, on the one hand it might seem like there is no point both parents being knackered. But when you are on your knees with tiredness, having just an extra hours unbroken sleep (if your partner does one nightfeed) can be an absolute godsend. I didn't know how much I could treasure every single minute of sleep until I had a baby that refused to sleep. But it is very personal to couples - their babies sleep patterns, their partners jobs. I can completely understand the resentment if you have a difficult baby and your partner doesn't want to "give" you an hours sleep by doing a night feed.

Yeah I don’t think I wrote that very well reading back. It wasn’t really supposed to be my thoughts about the possibility of doing both. It’s more reflecting on and questioning why so many women struggle today and “they” feel it’s impossible. I haven’t insisted anywhere in my post that it’s not possible!
I suppose I’m reflecting more on the sorts of comments I read here and elsewhere, that make me wonder if something’s gone wrong.
I do think it’s possible to do both I did it, but what I seem to be hearing more now, is something is always sacrificed, some women here seemed to find it impossible.

Your child is grown and so are mine but I’m reflecting on what I see now. I also know plenty of people who did both. Some successfully and some who now wished they’d spent more time at home.

That’s fair enough and to each their own, but I’ve actually known someone who after breastfeeding the baby then woke her OH up to change the nappy and get the baby back to sleep! Every night. Consequently when her OH came home he was so exhausted he wasn’t much help at all.
It’s a short window where mums have to get up at night (even though it seems like for ever at the time).
I’d get up every night and when my OH got home he’d cook, clean and watch the baby while I slept or bathed.

It’s great if it works for you both waking at night but it’s more the “if I have to get up why shouldn’t they” that I don’t understand.

There will always be people who wish that they had done things differently. Some will wish that they had spent more time at home. Some will wish that they had done more to maintain their own careers. I know people in both camps. My own mother bitterly regrets not having had a career of her own, and that has no doubt shaped my own thinking and that of my dsis on these issues.

I simply don't agree that "something is always sacrificed". I genuinely don't feel that I had to sacrifice anything. I was lucky enough to have lots of flexibility in my role and a DH that pulled his weight. And yes, lots of women do struggle but there are lots more that are just getting on with it who don't necessarily feel the need to start threads on MN to talk about how they're managing just fine.

If something has "gone wrong", I would say that it is primarily because a) some men still see women as the default for childcare and housework and they don't step up to do their fair share, even when the woman is working full time; b) some employers still want to function as if every employee with children still has a SAHP at home that can absolve their employees of all domestic responsibilities; and c) some women have internalised the idea that childcare and housework is primarily their responsibility and feel like their partner's job has to take priority/they can't insist on an equal division of labour at home.

All of these things need changing in my view.

Well clearly I think we could find women from both camps, the reasoning behind them wishing they’d been at home more, is because they not only felt they missed out but that their child did.

You’re very lucky everything turned out well you had support and flexibility with your job, not everyone has that and no, comments on here don’t necessarily reflect the majority of opinions, but that goes both ways. I do think there may have been a generation who just got on with it whereas nowadays I do think things are harder for a lot of women.

As much as I’d say my kids didn’t suffer as a result of my working full time (when I did) and being a mum,but then I’m hardly going to say anything else.

I think in your list of reasons why things might have “gone wrong” would have to include d)some women realise they actually prefer to stay at home with their children but can’t.

Well, their kids may or may not have missed out because of their mothers working - it is always impossible to say what might have been. I don't personally agree with the idea that it is inherently better for children to have a SAHP, as there are so many variables. I am confident that my dd absolutely didn't suffer as a result of me working- if anything, I believe that there was a net benefit to her.

I do think it's inherently better for children to have two happy and fulfilled parents, and so I agree with you that the ideal scenario would be for women who prefer to be able to stay at home to be able to do so. That isn't always the case at the moment, because not all families can afford to lose the woman's income.

And on the other side of the coin, I think that the ideal scenario would be for women who prefer to work to be able to do so. And again, that isn't always the case at the moment, because the cost of decent childcare can be prohibitive, employers can be inflexible and men often fail to carry their fair share of the load at home.

I think that, in an ideal scenario, men would have the same choices as women too. There is no reason why women should hold all of the cards here, or have all of the choices.

Of course, we will never live in an ideal world. All I can do is work within my own sphere of influence to support working parents (both men and women) in my own organisation to be able to work flexibly around their family's needs and to model a good balance for my dd that will enable her to make her own informed choices in the future.

“I do think it's inherently better for children to have two happy and fulfilled parents, and so I agree with you that the ideal scenario would be for women who prefer to be able to stay at home to be able to do so. That isn't always the case at the moment, because not all families can afford to lose the woman's income”.

“And on the other side of the coin, I think that the ideal scenario would be for women who prefer to work to be able to do so. And again, that isn't always the case at the moment, because the cost of decent childcare can be prohibitive, employers can be inflexible and men often fail to carry their fair share of the load at home”

In a nutshell.

What about men who want to stay at home

Yes, it's interesting that @naanaa chose to selectively quote from my post about women ideally having choices while leaving out the part about men ideally having choices too.

What happens if both halves of a couple decide that they want to stay at home with their kids?

Wow! I’ve responded politely to you, is there really any reason to make a big deal of one small element “men” and presume you have an idea why I ignored it, what are you actually implying by saying ”it’s interesting” like I have some sinister or narrow or outdated view of things?

It was an oversight. I’m not going to go through every single thing you’ve said those things I highlighted were the things that interested me, there was nothing more to it than that.
It’s good engaging with people on here but it can get a bit petty sometimes.

Btw my own OH was a SAHD.

Yeah no problem with that. I wasn’t excluding men. The birds I highlighted were the bits that interested me, that’s all. My OH was a SAHH so clearly I’ve nothing against it, if that’s what suits.

But men are not just one small element of the picture, are they? If women should have choices, then men should also have choices. And therein lies the problem, because unless a family is independently wealthy, they can't both choose to stay at home.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I wonder if part of the reason this has become a "thing" is because of Covid - I know lots of mums (me included) who were managing children and work fine, and then suddenly schools/childcare closed and they were having to work from home while also, somehow, homeschool a nine year old and look after a two year old (e.g.). While all the soft-play activities were shut and you couldn't even meet up with friends because you were MURDERING people. All families differ, but it was definately a theme that many mums who thought they shared the load equally with their husbands found it wasn't actually that equal when the chips were down. Even when the childcare was shared equally - its was still hard

Also - the unrealistic nature of social media. lots of parents are managing fine, raising their children fine, living lives that are moderately fulfilling and happy if stressful/boring at times. But you will never be as good as Tiktok mum who dresses in beautiful maxi dresses and bakes bread with her oldest daughter while practising French with her two six year olds and bounces an always happy baby on her hip. Whereas, if you were a good self sacrificing mother who had given up her career you too could be nurturing your children with sourdough and home-schooling. They wouldn't be throwing a tantrum in the supermarket if you had chosen their welfare over your career. In reality being a stay at home mum isn't like that (though it is a perfectly valid choice).

The “element” was referring to the many things you’d said ie one of the elements of what you said was about men, I clearly didn’t mean men are a small element. Why are you so determined to pick up on everything I say.

You’re rushing ahead and presuming things, just spend some time reading what I’ve written, rather than being so quick to jump on me.

Honestly it’s incredibly difficult for women now and I think Covid definitely impacted everything.

We never had social media when my kids were very young, no one to continually compare ourselves with and whether we were doing everything that this or that mum is doing. It’s incredibly stressful.
I think we’ve taken women’s natural ability (in most circumstances) to know what’s best. We make them more reliant on external influences, rather than encouraging them to make decisions, that are right for them and their family. This will also feed into decisions about work and home life etc.

I'm simply responding to what you've written. You've made it pretty clear that you don't consider men to be on a par with women when it comes to parenting, and you're entitled to your view but others are entitled to disagree.

As for social media, I totally agree that we're failing as parents if we bring up our kids to be constantly looking over their shoulders and comparing themselves to others. We should of course be nurturing them to have confidence in their own instincts. However, I think a lot of young women are more than capable these days of seeing social media for what it is.

I haven't finished watching this yet, but I'm finding it really interesting so far.

(It's a podcast so probably available on Spotify etc. too)

I'm also interested in the other thread trending at the moment about child maintenance, absent dads, and how horribly sexist the system is in this country. There's an intersection there that I think needs to be talked about.

I've been thinking more on this and I also do wonder if motherhood, is sort of devalued and caring for children is seen as an awkward inconvenience because it's just the one great part of life you can or optimise or make efficient.

I think while our understanding of child development - probably more specifically early child development - is much more in depth than in the past the actual practice of caring for children is probably not that more advanced than in the past. Young kids need good nutrition, exercise, someone to take care of their cleanliness and hygiene, lots of play and gentle, consistent encouragement on developing skills. It's slow, slow work and at its bare bones is probably fairly similar to what our ancestors were doing with their kids . It cannot be made efficient in anyway that is not fairly horrifying or detrimental to young children.

I think this applies to parents in general but because of sexism in society this awkward tension between the modern efficiency of society/the workplace and the more primal needs of children falls on mothers heads the hardest.

Probably not expressing this well but I think it's why parenting and child care can have a whiff of being a bit..old-hat sometimes?