Worrying Texas state abortion laws

[shakeitoffshakeacocktail]

I will try and link the article, they are trying to pass a law in Texas that would make anyone able to sue a person or business that is helping people have abortions.

The laws are already super strict in the state and this law somehow also means legal costs would go to the defendant if the case was won

I have been following the abortion laws in America for some years, there was a terrible story where a woman was arrested for endangering her fetus/ baby's life when she was shot (by another woman) in a parking lot, she lost her unborn baby and was SHE (mother) was arrested.

Sorry if I am not as eloquent as others on this topic but it seems so 'handmaidens tale' prequel in the US and it chills me.

I have never understood how a book (bible) and their faith can give them such superiority over others. I know there has been this issue across the centuries but they are such zealots and believe the words in the bible in such a literal sense.

Is it all a cover for power and a worry about birth rates? They want to keep the status quo and an almost Puritan society?

Why must old white men hold such power over all

[RandomMess]

If I lived in Texas and were at risk of an unwanted pregnancy then I would get myself abortion pills just in case.

[dreamingbohemian]

It is indeed sensible to preemptively get the abortion pills because if you don't find out you're pregnant until after 6 weeks then you cannot get an abortion, and it may take more than a couple weeks to arrange an out of state abortion.

Of course many women will not be able to afford to go out of state and will just be totally screwed

[NiceGerbil]

At least one woman has been imprisoned in the USA for endangering foetus.

That's beside the point.

And this stuff about hoarding abortion pills.

Let's keep on topic?

Despite what I said I do feel concern obv. Because it does feel close even if that's totally ridiculous.

States have been pushing all sorts of shit for years.

The big thing here is the supreme court have usually blocked. This time silent.

Texas has a very high mortality rate of mothers I think. Need to Google. That doesn't seem to bother them.

USA maternal mortality rate is shocking. It's way off other countries with similar economies etc. It's with developing country figures.

This is despite them having by far and away the highest spend per head on healthcare than any other country in the world, again by far.

[dreamingbohemian]

I imagine British women care more about abortion rights in the US than in Poland because they don't speak Polish and can't follow events there as easily

And really you should all pay attention to the US because the right wing nuts there are increasingly getting involved in UK politics

[NiceGerbil]

@RandomMess

It's so sad and scary and I say that as someone who thinks our current abortion laws are too liberal.

I'd be getting hold of abortion pills and recommending every other woman does because as soon as you know you're pregnant you're going to have to make as decision

You don't live in Texas?

I don't get your earlier post then. Why did you post that?

Do you know the status re contraception/ map/ abortion pills via online pharmacy in USA? I admit I don't.

That would be useful info.

[FTEngineerM]

bill 8 bars abortion once embryonic cardiac activity is detected

The whole thing is petrifying, but the above sentence really got me.. so as soon as that bunch of cells gets a heartbeat your life/future no longer matters. With no exception for rape/incest, it’s entirely plausible that someone hasn’t even found out they’re pregnant and there to be cardiac activity, what’s that 6 weeks?

[RandomMess]

I'm really tired and have written dysphasia hence being unclear.

No I am ignorant of the contraceptive laws in Texas but this new abortion law terrifies me for women of childbearing age that live there.

Yes the horror of the marriage laws in many US states too

My DDs are so privileged to live in England despite so much misogyny everywhere.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

The new law in Texas is regressive for sure. And an infringement on women’s reproductive rights. But it’s not just old white men behind this. There are minorities and women voting for this as well.

It’s not actually 6 weeks but from when “cardiac activity” can be found, which is typically at around 6 weeks. That’s why it’s called the heart beat bill (even though there isn’t a heart organ yet...)

Many of the politicians supporting it don’t see it as a religious issue at all, but a scientific one.

People, including politicians, settle on different biological milestones to determine when in their ethical framework, the unborn gain personhood. The majority in Texas apparently see having “a heart beat” as being developed enough to be considered a live human person with a right to life, with exceptions for severe life limiting abnormalities and mothers life being endangered.

Other majorities view this milestone to be when the unborn can survive outside the womb using modern medicine, hence the usual ban on late term abortions at 22, 24 or 28 weeks except in special cases of severe life limiting abnormalities or danger to the mothers life.

Yet others see it as after birth and not a moment before.

And yes I feel for women in Texas, but other states do have more liberal laws and the US is a country where it is possible to move to another State with better laws. This is less possible for poor women of course, so I feel especially bad for them. Hopefully some kind of Underground Railroad can be set up where a charity just drives a bus around Texas, picks women up, takes them to get abortions in another state and brings them home again.

I don’t think the entire US is in danger of following suit. Many states have been making their abortion laws more liberal, like New York. But what we are seeing is polarisation.

[NiceGerbil]

@dreamingbohemian

I imagine British women care more about abortion rights in the US than in Poland because they don't speak Polish and can't follow events there as easily

And really you should all pay attention to the US because the right wing nuts there are increasingly getting involved in UK politics

You should all?

Who should all?

Issues such as NHS, immigration, benefits system, trade are bigger issues here by far.

NI has changed the law recently allowing abortion where before they had a law that was essentially a ban.

The right wing here aren't interested in abortion. At all.

And every high street round here has polish shops and my kids had friends with polish parents at primary and we have polish neighbours and so what the hell are you on about. Oh different language.

You don't care. Ok got that.

The message is that feminists don't care about women who don't speak the same language? Are you quite serious.

[NiceGerbil]

Can't follow events there so easily..

The mass marches by women in Poland were on BBC front page. Along with full articles about. What was going on. The reasons. The tone of govt. Them trying to push it through illegally with a side step.

I'm really taken aback by that comment tbh.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@NiceGerbil
“USA maternal mortality rate is shocking. It's way off other countries with similar economies etc. It's with developing country figures.This is despite them having by far and away the highest spend per head on healthcare than any other country in the world, again by far.”

This is true. However, I think the reason they have such poor maternal and infant mortality rates is because most of the money spent on healthcare doesn’t get spent on actual healthcare but on their huge health insurance industry. These middlemen take the lion’s share of the money.

[dreamingbohemian]

I agree it would be great to see an effort to help women get out of state, unfortunately under the provisions of the bill anyone helping women get an abortion can be sued out of existence, so it's a massive deterrent.

[NiceGerbil]

@FTEngineerM

bill 8 bars abortion once embryonic cardiac activity is detected

The whole thing is petrifying, but the above sentence really got me.. so as soon as that bunch of cells gets a heartbeat your life/future no longer matters. With no exception for rape/incest, it’s entirely plausible that someone hasn’t even found out they’re pregnant and there to be cardiac activity, what’s that 6 weeks?

Yes but the heartbeat thing has been in bills. Loads of bills for ages.

Also the whole must have a scan thing. That any procedure had to be in a hosp not clinic etc
Changing laws to make clinics hard to operate and shut them down

This has been going on for well 10- 15 years that I know and before that prob. Didn't get so much info before the 24/7 worldwide type thing now.

None of this is new.

Abortion is a wedge issue. It's a power play between republicans and democrats.

I believe that California has put a law in place to protect abortion rights even if roe v Wade is overturned.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@RandomMess

If I lived in Texas and were at risk of an unwanted pregnancy then I would get myself abortion pills just in case.

How? You can’t just buy them, you need a doctors prescription. Unless you are talking about buying them black market from Mexico in which case half the time those knock off pills don’t work.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@dreamingbohemian

I agree it would be great to see an effort to help women get out of state, unfortunately under the provisions of the bill anyone helping women get an abortion can be sued out of existence, so it's a massive deterrent.

Actually, it’s only if you help a woman get an illegal abortion can you be sued. An abortion bus that drives over state lines, picks women up and takes them to get legal abortions is not something they can sue the operators for.

[cariadlet]

Horrific news. It makes me so angry that men think they have the right to control what women do with their bodies.

[NiceGerbil]

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@NiceGerbil
“USA maternal mortality rate is shocking. It's way off other countries with similar economies etc. It's with developing country figures.This is despite them having by far and away the highest spend per head on healthcare than any other country in the world, again by far.”

This is true. However, I think the reason they have such poor maternal and infant mortality rates is because most of the money spent on healthcare doesn’t get spent on actual healthcare but on their huge health insurance industry. These middlemen take the lion’s share of the money.[/quote]
Yes totally agree.

In the end I really press UK posters to remember that lack of access to reproductive healthcare is a massive issue worldwide resulting in the injury death of thousands upon thousands of women and girls every year.

[dreamingbohemian]

@NiceGerbil I don't know why you're picking holes in everyone's posts but it's really unpleasant

For the record I'm Polish-American living in the UK. So yes I care about Poland and I was glad to see the BBC give attention to the issue for a few weeks. Then they went back to ignoring it so no, I don't expect people in the UK who don't speak Polish to be following events there closely. By contrast anyone in the UK can read the New York Times or watch CNN.

It's really naive to think the Tories are cosying up to right wing American groups and taking their money and this will have no effect on politics in the UK.

[NiceGerbil]

Maybe a way to think about it is that.

USA is made up of States that have a lot of individual freedom in lawmaking. Different norms cultures even if you like.

Texas have been doing bill after fucking bill on this for years.

In the UK we are made up of 4 countries. There is devolution. England and Wales law is the same. Scotland and NI have their own laws on lots of things. All 4 countries have a devolved assembly with MPs etc.

[dreamingbohemian]

I hope you're right about that @Plan I bet someone will try to sue anyway though

[NiceGerbil]

NI abortion law was changed in 2019.

Before that it was (can post law in a minute) only allowed in extremely restrictive circs, amongst the most restrictive in Europe.

It was illegal to assist etc an abortion in any way. The penalty being life imprisonment.

In Texas you have to have the money inclination etc to sue.

In NI until 2019 it was a criminal offence with a max punishment of life imprisonment.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@dreamingbohemian

I hope you're right about that *@Plan* I bet someone will try to sue anyway though

I hope so too. I hope someone over there at least takes the risk and tries to help.

[NiceGerbil]

I'm saying all this because. That is one of the countries in UK. Women and girls there are just a short hop away.

I saw very little of the strength of feeling about possible USA law changes back then about NI. Lots of women/ people didn't even know.

Sorry to keep hammering this point.

Yes I care about USA women in certain States. Also women in Europe, south America, Africa, Asia whose situation is extremely dire when it comes to reproductive care

Although legal in NI now in practice it's very very hard to actually get an abortion.

Posters in uk this is something we can actually try to do something about. It's our country.

[NiceGerbil]

[quote dreamingbohemian]@NiceGerbil I don't know why you're picking holes in everyone's posts but it's really unpleasant

For the record I'm Polish-American living in the UK. So yes I care about Poland and I was glad to see the BBC give attention to the issue for a few weeks. Then they went back to ignoring it so no, I don't expect people in the UK who don't speak Polish to be following events there closely. By contrast anyone in the UK can read the New York Times or watch CNN.

It's really naive to think the Tories are cosying up to right wing American groups and taking their money and this will have no effect on politics in the UK.[/quote]
Just lost a long post bugger it.

I'm not picking holes I'm responding to what's written.

USA anti abortion groups have been pouring money into UK for a fair old while and exporting strategy.

Eg there never used to be protesters outside clinics. That came from usa.

Also setting up pregnancy helplines which did not say they were anti abortion. I remember in the news that resulted in some kind of law change.

[NiceGerbil]

When Tories combined with dup for majority there was big worry abortion law was part of deal. There were marches on downing st. I went on one

I wrote to my MP at the time as well.

In the end not a peep and in fact the law in NI was relaxed. Which was a total surprise tbh given they didn't have to and main parties there are anti abortion.