Worrying Texas state abortion laws

[shakeitoffshakeacocktail]

I will try and link the article, they are trying to pass a law in Texas that would make anyone able to sue a person or business that is helping people have abortions.

The laws are already super strict in the state and this law somehow also means legal costs would go to the defendant if the case was won

I have been following the abortion laws in America for some years, there was a terrible story where a woman was arrested for endangering her fetus/ baby's life when she was shot (by another woman) in a parking lot, she lost her unborn baby and was SHE (mother) was arrested.

Sorry if I am not as eloquent as others on this topic but it seems so 'handmaidens tale' prequel in the US and it chills me.

I have never understood how a book (bible) and their faith can give them such superiority over others. I know there has been this issue across the centuries but they are such zealots and believe the words in the bible in such a literal sense.

Is it all a cover for power and a worry about birth rates? They want to keep the status quo and an almost Puritan society?

Why must old white men hold such power over all

God that's sad Brandie, thinking of you.

I'm almost lost for words about the news on 6 weeks/heartbeat bullshit. Texas is a backward state and that American's consider themselves free is laughable, like they've been brainwashed from mandatory flag worshipping and national anthem singing. I feel very sorry for the poor women who have to live there and I know we will see women die and be maimed from backstreet abortions. Well fucking done America.

Here's the report in the Times today.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/texas-outlaws-abortion-at-start-of-foetal-heartbeat-grk5xchcr?shareToken=0b3251f7fcbac406d40fde0a358da896

Bloody hell. I was aware Texas was considering a ridiculously early ban, but the penalties for eg taxi drivers and the bounty for people who sue is beyond appalling.

The new law in Texas is regressive for sure. And an infringement on women’s reproductive rights. But it’s not just old white men behind this. There are minorities and women voting for this as well.

That really struck me watching the news over the last couple of days.
Hundreds and hundreds of women protestors, with banners, megaphones.
Very angry.
All anti-abortion.

Just why?
It's not as simple as men want this law and women don't.

Yes there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview.

The religious right did a great job of counteracting feminist gains in the 1960s and 70s, they really pushed this 'motherhood' paradigm where a 'good woman' is anti-abortion, anti-contraception, wants a 'strong man' to lead the family, etc and so on. This is all just completely normal in very religious parts of the country.

Just why?
It's not as simple as men want this law and women don't.

For whatever reason some women are anti abortion and that is their right. Men also have different beliefs. Very few people are completely wholly ‘pro’ or ‘anti’ the right to obtain an abortion in any given situation.

The point is how far they should be able to impose those beliefs on other women, and the balancing need of women to be able to control their own bodies in a society where the legislature is dominated by men.

@dreamingbohemian

Yes there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview.

The religious right did a great job of counteracting feminist gains in the 1960s and 70s, they really pushed this 'motherhood' paradigm where a 'good woman' is anti-abortion, anti-contraception, wants a 'strong man' to lead the family, etc and so on. This is all just completely normal in very religious parts of the country.

This, and also I don't think we understand just how embedded (Christian) religion is in US culture. Europe is extremely, extremely secular by comparison, a few countries excepted. In the US it's still very normal to open a conversation with a newcomer in your area with 'which church do you go to?' - and the response to 'I don't go to church' is likely to be confusion, surprise and distaste for many people. For all it trumpets its 'separation of church and state', America is a deeply religious and conservative country, a few states or pockets within states excepted.

It's frustrating that this is used as a political football and wedge issue by both parties for election purposes. I think the Democrats could have tried to do more going back years at a federal level because it's long been known that Roe Wade isn't the most solid of legal judgments.

I don't honestly know what can be done because as a PP pointed out individual states have a lot of power over their own legislature in a way that's akin to them being their own country within a country.

In the US it's still very normal to open a conversation with a newcomer in your area with 'which church do you go to?' - and the response to 'I don't go to church' is likely to be confusion, surprise and distaste for many people. For all it trumpets its 'separation of church and state', America is a deeply religious and conservative country, a few states or pockets within states excepted.

I think this overstates it a bit though. Yes this is true in parts of the US but there are huge parts of the US where this is not true at all.

Recent surveys show only 25% of Americans go to church/mosque/synagogue every week, and less than half of Americans belong to a place of worship. About 20% of Americans have no religious affiliation at all. It's a very different picture to even 20 years ago. And these trends are likely to continue as the older generations who are more religious pass away.

The religious right are enormously influential but I don't want people to think the entire country is like them. About 60% of Americans support keeping abortion legal, that wouldn't be the case if the entire country was deeply religious and conservative.

@ErrolTheDragon

Here's the report in the Times today.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/texas-outlaws-abortion-at-start-of-foetal-heartbeat-grk5xchcr?shareToken=0b3251f7fcbac406d40fde0a358da896

Bloody hell. I was aware Texas was considering a ridiculously early ban, but the penalties for eg taxi drivers and the bounty for people who sue is beyond appalling.

I can't find it. But somewhere I saw a comment asking why women don't just travel to another state. (Because, of course, that's the issue.)

In response, somebody pointed out that 3 bordering, relatively easy to access states (e.g., Arkansas) have comparable restrictions in many ways.

Texas is vast and I wonder if that can be difficult for some of us (me) to grasp for what it means in a material rather than 'knowledge' sense.

Travelling to a state without other restrictions would, for some women, involve driving the equivalent distance that an Italian would have to drive to seek an abortion if that were in Denmark. The woman would have to drive (be driven?) across an area as isolated as Siberia to get there.

And that's not considering issues around time off work/education to travel there and back, the arrangement and cost of childcare/similar responsibilities, the cost of the petrol, the cost of the out of state procedure etc.

Absolutely horrifying.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/health/texas-abortion-law-facts.amp.html

I trust their is accompanying legislation to ensure the errant fathers who are often the reason the woman wants the abortion in the first place are forced to pay child maintenance for the unwanted child's entire childhood. Mmm, thought not.....

I absolutely do not agree with abortions, however, all this will do is push women into getting them done in back alleys and unhygienic settings by untrained people for ridiculous amounts of money putting themselves in serious danger, potentially causing 2 deaths instead of one!

@Mommabear20

I absolutely do not agree with abortions, however, all this will do is push women into getting them done in back alleys and unhygienic settings by untrained people for ridiculous amounts of money putting themselves in serious danger, potentially causing 2 deaths instead of one!

Yes, this is a ban on safe, affordable, accessible abortions. Any other sort of abortion will continue to flourish.

Laws that mandate women to carry a pregnancy to term also allow us to consider that at some point that might be laws to compel women to terminate a pregnancy.

There have been minoritised groups who've been compelled to continue or terminate pregnancies in recent history (e.g., people with disabilities). The shock appears to be that this is happening in a geography that affects people and will have an impact on groups with which they have a shared culture or empathy.

"Yes there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview."

I'm slightly nervous about putting my head above the parapet for this one, and i don't have any inclination to get into a detailed debate about rights and wrongs, and goe awful i am for having different views, but the idea that women that disagree with abortion/want strict limits on it must be just embracing an antiquated patriarchal view isn't accurate at all. I think its a convenient belief because the view point is so different from any other people's, but that comes from a variety of reasons.

I personally would prefer our law to be stricter on abortion - not Texas strict, but say, 12 weeks. That's not because of any religious viewpoint, but because I believe that if the absence of brain stem activity = death (its the UK legal definition of brain death) then logically (IMO), the start of brain stem activity = life.

In every single other issue, I strongly align with most radical feminist ideology. I have been labelled a 'raving feminist' by more people than I remember.

I kept my name on marriage, I don't wear a ring, don't label myself as Mrs. I'm a very strong believer in contraceptives. I believe abstinence only policies are nuts. My family doesn't operate under traditional lines of man and provider and woman as carer and default childcare. I'm not saying I'm a perfect feminist, or not even necessarily a good one, but my views are about what I see as protecting the vulnerable (unborn) not to try to reinforce the patriarchy.

It should go without saying, that I believe that the best way to reduce abortions is to make contraception easier to access, and more reliable. Pregnancy tests should be available for free in demand (and at shops, chemists, pub toilets etc). Society should support pregnancies and families with more free childcare/mat leave, like in some Scandinavian countries, and yes, I'm happy for taxes to go up for that.

I think it would more much more productive long term if both sides of this argument ploughed all their efforts, all their money, into improving the reliability (and availability) of contraception. Less unwanted pregnancies is a win for both sides of the fence. Contraception that is truly 100% reliable, easy to take, discreet, minimal side effects etc, and freely available, bo questions asked, would go a long way to reducing the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

I wish we could just put something in the drinking water or something, so the default is that no one is fertile unless they they want to be and get medication to counteract it (light-hearted, mostly anyway, but a thought.).

It would be more understandable if they cared more for the children once they were born.

I also take it they’re not repealing their gun laws at the same time?

It makes any argument that they care about life a bit shallow really.

Interesting read through the thread

Talking about America as it's in the news

NI are in my opinion making progress to give women more choice, even if this has been years later than other countries.

I understand different states and countries have stricter moral/ religious views which come out in their laws. For me as a women born in 1986 it has felt like year on year most western countries are becoming more liberal, gay marriage, abortion laws, anti-discrimination laws, mental health support, disability inclusivity
How do you simultaneously provide mental health support whilst denying abortion choice
I hope this Texas bill isn't the start of many. Have we peaked as women? Will falling birth rates vs ageing population play a factor long term in our fertility choices?

Will it ever be a choice for all women or a law that gives no option. 6 week cut of is ridiculously early (before your 2nd missed period in a 'by the book' pregnancy)

I don't want women to be reduced to incubators and primary care givers.

I've had (in chronological order)
Birth control (from 17)
A miscarriage
A (healthy) pregnancy to term
An abortion
A coil

Fertility and birth control is hard enough without laws that take away choice

Moonvaby what about the life of the woman it's inside?

Contraception that is truly 100% reliable, easy to take, discreet, minimal side effects etc, and freely available, bo questions asked, would go a long way to reducing the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

But moonbaby, this assumes it's all on the women's shoulders.

In the context of America, you're absolutely right, but it's not fool proof and doesn't account for unwanted pregnancies due to rape.

The other issue with America is the lack of maternity leave, free health care etc. Pregnancy can cause lasting health issues for some women.

Sorry don’t know how to share, but Justin Webb has a great piece in the Times today, where he shows again that he is a great ally for women, as well as spelling out the constitutional complexities and implications of this.

We are all horrified at the speed with which the Taliban has terrified women back into burkas and staying at home. Texas is showing that reversing progress for women is not limited to failed states.

@Moonbabysmum I don't think it's patriarchal to be personally opposed to abortion or think there should be lower time limits

But if you actively support an actual law, that in practice bans abortions and empowers people to be bounty hunters of women seeking abortion, then you are supporting the oppression of women. And that IS patriarchal bullshit.

That is what I was referring to.

I've just been reading about activists spamming the tip line for grassing people up who help secure an abortion, which has cheered me up a little. It's horrific that this law has been passed and I think it's emotive because of parallels with how the Taliban treat women, which has been all over the news for several days now. It's hard to act all superior as a nation when women are being treated badly like this. I know it's not entirely the same but it feels very similar.

It's not patriarchal to hold that view.

But it is the definition of patriarchal to want to impose it on all other women and girls.

@Moonbabysmum

"Yes there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview."

I'm slightly nervous about putting my head above the parapet for this one, and i don't have any inclination to get into a detailed debate about rights and wrongs, and goe awful i am for having different views, but the idea that women that disagree with abortion/want strict limits on it must be just embracing an antiquated patriarchal view isn't accurate at all. I think its a convenient belief because the view point is so different from any other people's, but that comes from a variety of reasons.

I personally would prefer our law to be stricter on abortion - not Texas strict, but say, 12 weeks. That's not because of any religious viewpoint, but because I believe that if the absence of brain stem activity = death (its the UK legal definition of brain death) then logically (IMO), the start of brain stem activity = life.

In every single other issue, I strongly align with most radical feminist ideology. I have been labelled a 'raving feminist' by more people than I remember.

I kept my name on marriage, I don't wear a ring, don't label myself as Mrs. I'm a very strong believer in contraceptives. I believe abstinence only policies are nuts. My family doesn't operate under traditional lines of man and provider and woman as carer and default childcare. I'm not saying I'm a perfect feminist, or not even necessarily a good one, but my views are about what I see as protecting the vulnerable (unborn) not to try to reinforce the patriarchy.

It should go without saying, that I believe that the best way to reduce abortions is to make contraception easier to access, and more reliable. Pregnancy tests should be available for free in demand (and at shops, chemists, pub toilets etc). Society should support pregnancies and families with more free childcare/mat leave, like in some Scandinavian countries, and yes, I'm happy for taxes to go up for that.

I think it would more much more productive long term if both sides of this argument ploughed all their efforts, all their money, into improving the reliability (and availability) of contraception. Less unwanted pregnancies is a win for both sides of the fence. Contraception that is truly 100% reliable, easy to take, discreet, minimal side effects etc, and freely available, bo questions asked, would go a long way to reducing the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

I wish we could just put something in the drinking water or something, so the default is that no one is fertile unless they they want to be and get medication to counteract it (light-hearted, mostly anyway, but a thought.).

The brain isn't fully formed, and nerve receptors are not fully formed until the third trimester. A fetus does not have any sentience or brain activity until the third trimester. 12 weeks is far too short and harsh. 22 to 24 weeks is fair, especially considering that many conditions such as Down Syndrome aren't picked up until 20 weeks, add on the time to make a decision, schedule appointment, specialist appointment etc.

I signed up for some sort of selection of New York Times articles a while ago, got the one below yesterday. It is probably behind a paywall but there may be one free article a month or suchlike. It seems like the situation re the Supreme Court not blocking a law which contravenes Roe vs Wade is very worrying and also note this:

What distinguishes the Texas law from bans that courts have blocked everywhere else is that, instead of making abortion a crime prosecutable by the government, it lets any citizen sue anyonene_ whom they accuse of “aiding or abetting” an abortion after the cutoff point — phrasing that includes not only abortion providers but also anyone who, for instance, pays for a procedure or drives a patient to a clinic. Successful plaintiffs will get $10,000 and reimbursement of their legal fees. Defendants who prevail will not be reimbursed.^

The imbalance of reimbursement means this is may be a persecutors' charter. People who are accused - even completely spuriously - may well not be able to afford to defend themselves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/02/us/politics/roe-v-wade-supreme-court.html

(As a wry aside ... the NYT has managed to write this piece without using the word 'women' once except in a reference to a specific organisation name. )

@dreamingbohemian

Yes there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview.

The religious right did a great job of counteracting feminist gains in the 1960s and 70s, they really pushed this 'motherhood' paradigm where a 'good woman' is anti-abortion, anti-contraception, wants a 'strong man' to lead the family, etc and so on. This is all just completely normal in very religious parts of the country.

Oh fgs- women can think for themselves. I think it's the case that women who are anti- abortion genuinely believe it is no different from infanticide.

I also think, despite being pro- choice, that that is a legitimate and understandable position.