Worrying Texas state abortion laws

[shakeitoffshakeacocktail]

I will try and link the article, they are trying to pass a law in Texas that would make anyone able to sue a person or business that is helping people have abortions.

The laws are already super strict in the state and this law somehow also means legal costs would go to the defendant if the case was won

I have been following the abortion laws in America for some years, there was a terrible story where a woman was arrested for endangering her fetus/ baby's life when she was shot (by another woman) in a parking lot, she lost her unborn baby and was SHE (mother) was arrested.

Sorry if I am not as eloquent as others on this topic but it seems so 'handmaidens tale' prequel in the US and it chills me.

I have never understood how a book (bible) and their faith can give them such superiority over others. I know there has been this issue across the centuries but they are such zealots and believe the words in the bible in such a literal sense.

Is it all a cover for power and a worry about birth rates? They want to keep the status quo and an almost Puritan society?

Why must old white men hold such power over all

It's not as simple as men want this law and women don't

In the UK opinion polls have shown there is greater support from women than men for tightening the UK's abortion laws.

Ill thought out statements like there are women who support this but they are women who have embraced this antiquated patriarchal worldview don't begin to remotely address why that should be.

The Onion's take on this is bitterly funny:

www.theonion.com/new-texas-law-allows-private-citizens-to-hold-pregnant-1847602167

They posted pro-abortion-rights completely serious piece back in 2014:
www.theonion.com/abortion-must-be-safe-legal-and-soon-1819584937?utm_campaign=The+Onion&utm_content=1630684843&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2N_HqngaheiADjxO_C9WIpw5g89lD-8XKx-Kcd58VexopXFK9KQWI9O4Q

ErroltheDragon
'(As a wry aside ... the NYT has managed to write this piece without using the word 'women' once except in a reference to a specific organisation name. confusedhmm)'.

I've written to Maggie Astor, the author of the piece, asking why she wrote 'pregnant people'. It will be interesting to see her explanation, if any.

Oh wow. So I did double Post on Texas. Didn‘t find this thread because mumsnet has two feminism sections now…
A dark law, indeed.

@shakeitoffshakeacocktail

Interesting read through the thread

Talking about America as it's in the news

NI are in my opinion making progress to give women more choice, even if this has been years later than other countries.

I understand different states and countries have stricter moral/ religious views which come out in their laws. For me as a women born in 1986 it has felt like year on year most western countries are becoming more liberal, gay marriage, abortion laws, anti-discrimination laws, mental health support, disability inclusivity
How do you simultaneously provide mental health support whilst denying abortion choice
I hope this Texas bill isn't the start of many. Have we peaked as women? Will falling birth rates vs ageing population play a factor long term in our fertility choices?

Will it ever be a choice for all women or a law that gives no option. 6 week cut of is ridiculously early (before your 2nd missed period in a 'by the book' pregnancy)

I don't want women to be reduced to incubators and primary care givers.

I've had (in chronological order)
Birth control (from 17)
A miscarriage
A (healthy) pregnancy to term
An abortion
A coil

Fertility and birth control is hard enough without laws that take away choice

Northern Ireland is one of the 4 countries that comprises the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Their abortion law was changed very very recently.

Before that they had one of the strictest laws in Europe.

Some women and groups in the wider UK had this on their radar and were lobbying.

And of course women in NI protested loudly and frequently.

Rights were given in MARCH 2O2O.

I know it doesn't seem to go down well. But through the years I've been on here action to restrict rights in one or another state in USA were talked about way more than a part of the UK.

I do think the USA thing gets more attention than it should from UK people in a global context.

I understand why.

But USA even with a shared language and consuming lots of their entertainment output is a different country. Different history different values. Different set up when it comes to who runs things and the final arbiters.

And massively different by States.

Red blue isn't it or whatever the colours and abortion is a long term. Brilliantly divisive emotive wedge issue.

USA has a host of massive problems.
USA has a system of governance.
USA is a two party choice and that's it. As are we at the moment and real choice is another thread. But both sides are right of our closest neighbours.

What about abortion in Poland? Malta? Loads of the countries in South America? And Africa? Asia?

I am of course upset and worried by Texas. They have been fucking with this for years though. There are hardly any abortion clinics left after years of years forcing closure etc

But why is this so so much more in focus than all the other places it's fucked?

I know why of course. I get it and I automatically feel it and then pull back because despite the shared language and entertainment, we are miles and miles apart.

Texas and other states have been doing this for YEARS. the difference now is the supreme court lost bader Ginsburg and trump stuffed in a republican quicksmart.

That the highest legal power in the land is partisan is bizarre. Or at least to be so openly partisan.

@KimikosNightmare to compare the termination of a 13 week old fetus to the murder of a born infant is ludicrous and is not a reasonable position, not at all.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare to compare the termination of a 13 week old fetus to the murder of a born infant is ludicrous and is not a reasonable position, not at all.[/quote]
Whether or not you agree, some people really don’t make that distinction and believe that life starts at conception.

However, it’s difficult to believe that people who genuinely hold this position also believe guns should be sold in supermarkets without background checks and thrown in with the shopping next to the toddler.

Taking into account other policies, it’s difficult to understand the Texas law as anything other than anti-woman.

#Pro-life*

*until birth.

Sarah Ditum has a column in the Times today. Very clear exposition of the awfulness of this law.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/texas-puts-price-on-heads-of-pregnant-women-l62k7qd27?shareToken=91769501c68976e74c90e4890b17972c

@ErrolTheDragon

Sarah Ditum has a column in the Times today. Very clear exposition of the awfulness of this law.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/texas-puts-price-on-heads-of-pregnant-women-l62k7qd27?shareToken=91769501c68976e74c90e4890b17972c

Excellent piece and she captures it so well.

In short, every encounter anybody has with a woman who could possibly be pregnant becomes a liability. Would you lend a female friend a few hundred knowing that, if she spends it on getting an abortion, you might end up defending yourself against a $10,000 legal bill? If you drove a taxi, would you be happy dropping a woman off at a Planned Parenthood clinic…

Associating with a plausibly fertile woman is suddenly a dangerous activity…Though some, of course, will be perfectly amenable to a system that makes women into objects of suspicion. This kind of law always has the advantage of a certain baseline misogyny to work with.

Tech companies hold huge amounts of information that could be very valuable to anyone trying to access that $10,000 bounty, from private messages to period tracking. Much of that data is protected by law, but there’s nothing to stop hopeful plaintiffs from trying their luck.

The bit about the period tracker apps brought me up short. Of course somebody is going to try for this and access to your personal messages. Do we trust the big tech companies to have our backs and refuse?

Are women in Texas going to need to take classes in cyber-security so their messages can't be hacked readily? Will there be wariness about communicating with others in case their messages can then be used as evidence?

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare to compare the termination of a 13 week old fetus to the murder of a born infant is ludicrous and is not a reasonable position, not at all.[/quote]
It is not ludicrous. All this talk of enforcing the patriarchy and bodily autonomy is ludicrous.

The vast majority of people who are anti abortion view abortion as killing a child. You , general you, can bang on about "bodily autonomy and the patriarchy , forced birther" until you're blue in the face. It won't change their minds because in most cases if the abortion didn't happen the end result would be a healthy baby. You, general you, have no answer to that.

Feminists go on a lot about female biology- they also go on a lot on here about how amazing the female body is- it can grow a whole new human. It's not amazing- it's what female mammalian body is designed to do. The corollary of that for an anti abortionist is that this uniquely female biology creates new humans and there should not be a right to destroy new humans.

My personal view is that I am extremely uncomfortable with a lot of the feminist rhetoric about abortion but legal abortion is the lesser of 2 evils and I support the UK position.

@KimikosNightmare It is ludicrous to suggest a 13 week fetus is the same as a born infant. That is clear in anyone's language.

@KimikosNightmare I wasn't even referring to feminism in my reply to you. However your reply suggests women are nothing but broodmares, incubators, and giving birth is 'our lot' so we should just put up with it. That is patriarchal rhetoric if ever I've seen it.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare It is ludicrous to suggest a 13 week fetus is the same as a born infant. That is clear in anyone's language.[/quote]
You aren't addressing the point. An anti abortionist will say if you leave that foetus alone in the majority of cases the end result will be a healthy baby. 13 weeks or 39 weeks- so what ? It's ending a life.

@KimikosNightmare There is a very, very, very big difference between a 13 week fetus and a 39 week one. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare I wasn't even referring to feminism in my reply to you. However your reply suggests women are nothing but broodmares, incubators, and giving birth is 'our lot' so we should just put up with it. That is patriarchal rhetoric if ever I've seen it.[/quote]
My reply did nothing of the sort but is exactly the sort of rhetoric I would have expected.

The UK rates (1 in 4 pregnancies end in abortion) suggest to me that the actual grounds in the 1967 Act must be being stretched to breaking point or are simply ignored. Fine- I'm happy to go along with that. It's the lesser evil of 2 bad things.

I don't believe anti abortionists are all approaching it from the point of view of "enforcing the patriarchy". I think many do believe it is killing a child.

@KimikosNightmare You said women are made to made to give birth. It's not amazing- it's what female mammalian body is designed to do. Your rhetoric is very patriarchal. If you can't see how patriarchal your statement is, you are deeply in denial of your own views. Again you're not listening. I really don't care what the Pro-Gestational Slavers say. I really don't care. It's irrelevant. This thread is about Texas. In America. Not the UK. And over there, they are basically making it illegal to get a 6 week abortion. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at the time. Their patriarchal aim is to force women into Incubatorial Servitude. To deny women body autonomy. To force them to risk their health in pregnancy and risk their life in childbirth. No woman should be forced to gestate against her will. It is (forced pregnancy) deemed by the UN to be a Human Rights Violation. And that is what the patriarchy in Texas are aiming to do. Strip women of their human rights and health rights, even as far as adding a bounty! That's what this thread is about. What is happening in Texas.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare There is a very, very, very big difference between a 13 week fetus and a 39 week one. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.[/quote]
Perhaps you could try reading what I said for a start?

You keep referring to it as if I believe that. I haven't said I do. I have said that is the position an anti- abortionist will take. They will take that position because if one does not interfere with the foetus at 13 weeks it will in the majority of cases go on to the end result of a 39 week baby.

Your response is just "it's different- it's obvious ! " but that doesn't actually answer the point an anti abortionist would make.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]**@KimikosNightmare* You said women are made to made to give birth. It's not amazing- it's what female mammalian body is designed to do. Your rhetoric is very patriarchal. If you can't see how patriarchal your statement is, you are deeply in denial of your own views. Again you're not listening. I really don't care what the Pro-Gestational Slavers say. I really don't care. It's irrelevant. This thread is about Texas. In America. Not the UK. And over there, they are basically making it illegal to get a 6 week abortion. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at the time. Their patriarchal aim is to force women into Incubatorial Servitude. To deny women body autonomy. To force them to risk their health in pregnancy and risk their life in childbirth. No woman should be forced to gestate against her will. It is (forced pregnancy) deemed by the UN to be a Human Rights Violation. And that is what the patriarchy in Texas are aiming to do. Strip women of their human rights and health rights, even as far as adding a bounty*! That's what this thread is about. What is happening in Texas.[/quote]
Oh good another lecture involving the use of the word "patriarchy"

You're missing the point I was making re biology but carry on. I was actually trying to suggest you (general and particular) might just try and think about what motivates an anti abortionist. In your head it's enforcing the patriarchy- no other reason. That's as blinkered as the side you oppose.

The Texas law is awful.

@KimikosNightmare Sorry if the word patriarchy triggers you, but that is exactly what it is, deny it all you like, that is the reality. It is all about patriarchy in the end. I can't change that reality for you. I know exactly what motivates anti-choicers or rather pro-gestational slavers. And patriarchal views is basically what it boils down to. Whether you want to accept that reality, or not. It is what it is. It's reality.

In re: the Texas laws, is there any virtue-signalling indication that any of the bounty-hunters intend to donate the money to a fund for lobbying to improve welfare provision for women and children? Fuller access to affordable healthcare? Better housing? Maternity leave and maternity pay? Childcare provision?

I don't know what the laws are in Texas but if the woman can't pay the 10K dollar bounty, does she go to prison for defaulting on a debt? Does anyone know the timescale? I'm just wondering if some women might find themselves, pregnant, in prison. And with a criminal record that might disbar them from a number of housing services or employment opportunities.

@KimikosNightmare Once again, as I said, I understand women can be personally anti-abortion as an ethical stance. That's fine.

But when you impose your own beliefs on the whole population, to the extent that you effectively ban abortion and force women to carry every pregnancy to term, then you are oppressing those women. The only way to be okay with doing that is if you buy into this broader patriarchal worldview that accepts women having fewer rights.

I have no issue with women with who are anti-abortion because I completely understand how people can believe that. What I object to is their forcing their views on everyone else.

I don't claim to know what motivates people who want to effectively outlaw abortions, but they do seem by some bizarre coincidence to be a lot more prevalent in societies with a 'patriarchal' religious culture.

[quote FreddyKreugersWife]@KimikosNightmare Sorry if the word patriarchy triggers you, but that is exactly what it is, deny it all you like, that is the reality. It is all about patriarchy in the end. I can't change that reality for you. I know exactly what motivates anti-choicers or rather pro-gestational slavers. And patriarchal views is basically what it boils down to. Whether you want to accept that reality, or not. It is what it is. It's reality.[/quote]
It is your assessment. Repeating "it's the patriarchy" loud and often doesn't make it the objective truth.

@ErrolTheDragon

I don't claim to know what motivates people who want to effectively outlaw abortions, but they do seem by some bizarre coincidence to be a lot more prevalent in societies with a 'patriarchal' religious culture.

In the US perhaps? As I mentioned more women than men want to make UK abortion law more restrictive.

Do we have a "patriarchal religious culture" here?

The answer to everything is "it's the patriarchy"- no further thought required.

Once again, as I said, I understand women can be personally anti-abortion as an ethical stance. That's fine

But when you impose your own beliefs on the whole population, to the extent that you effectively ban abortion and force women to carry every pregnancy to term, then you are oppressing those women. The only way to be okay with doing that is if you buy into this broader patriarchal worldview that accepts women having fewer rights

And once again you seem to be incapable of even understanding that for some anti- abortionists the situation of a pregnancy is unique and there is another life there.

The reality is abortion is a convenient way of getting rid of an unwanted child. I can live with that idea; but if you (general you) accept that it sounds terrible doesn't it? Plays right into the hands of the anti- abortionists. So feminism drags in this language of "supporting the patriarchy"