"Sex Work Is Work" is a shit slogan.

[ScreamingMeMe]

I know the intent behind it is that sex work is nothing to be ashamed of, and it absolutely isn't. But there isn't a great deal of nuance to it, is there?

For every self-proclaimed "happy hooker" or Only Fans worker, there will be 1000s of women who have been abused and/or trafficed whose "choice" to do sex work wasn't really a choice at all, whose lives are grim and shit.

"Sex work is work" makes no such distinctions. So can we really expect the men who use sex workers to?

I'm trying to think of a better slogan, but can't come up with anything quite as catchy. But maybe simple, catchy slogans aren't possible for complex issues.

"Don't Shame Sex Workers"?

I dunno...

@Aspiringmatriarch

Also you haven’t said how punters know the sex worker is trafficked. How does it work in countries where it's decriminalised?

You tell me.

@Pumperthepumper you don't seem to know much about the industry either. I hope to God you don't come into contact with any sex workers. Your attitude is rude, uninformed and dismissive.

[quote Sundaysunfay]@Pumperthepumper you don't seem to know much about the industry either. I hope to God you don't come into contact with any sex workers. Your attitude is rude, uninformed and dismissive.[/quote]
Which bit?

Why not? You’re happy to pay to literally do whatever you like to someone’s body, why would you then not try and get it cheaper elsewhere? And from there, why would you not try and get it for free?

And generally, paying to offload inside another human being doesn’t scream ‘I have a massive respect for this person’ - why wouldn’t that translate into low-level misogyny outside of that transaction?

I'm not sure you're paying to do literally whatever you like. And I have no idea if it translates into misogyny outside of that scenario - maybe if you think someone who does that is of low value you would then start to see all women through the same lens. But I'm not sure if this is a fact or is just your belief because you feel so strongly about the whole issue, if that makes sense. Sorry if that sounds goady. I'm just not sure, because I've been in religious circles where the same certainty is applied to other issues and I've found it not to be true.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Why not? You’re happy to pay to literally do whatever you like to someone’s body, why would you then not try and get it cheaper elsewhere? And from there, why would you not try and get it for free?

And generally, paying to offload inside another human being doesn’t scream ‘I have a massive respect for this person’ - why wouldn’t that translate into low-level misogyny outside of that transaction?

I'm not sure you're paying to do literally whatever you like. And I have no idea if it translates into misogyny outside of that scenario - maybe if you think someone who does that is of low value you would then start to see all women through the same lens. But I'm not sure if this is a fact or is just your belief because you feel so strongly about the whole issue, if that makes sense. Sorry if that sounds goady. I'm just not sure, because I've been in religious circles where the same certainty is applied to other issues and I've found it not to be true.

Well, I guess the opposite is you think punters love women so much that they deserve money for doing whatever you like to them, instead of using that love of women to date and you know, not have a massive power imbalance. Which seems unlikely.

You tell me.

Why? Because I must have all the answers or I'm not allowed to contribute to the discussion? I'd like to know. If you do know, then please tell me. Or if you're trying to make a point, then just say what it is that you mean. I hope it's not meant to imply that I don't care about the issue?

@Aspiringmatriarch

You tell me.

Why? Because I must have all the answers or I'm not allowed to contribute to the discussion? I'd like to know. If you do know, then please tell me. Or if you're trying to make a point, then just say what it is that you mean. I hope it's not meant to imply that I don't care about the issue?

Because it’s your question. You’re jumping around so much. Let’s deal with your first question first - how do punters know if women are sex trafficked or not even in countries where it’s decriminalised?

Well, I guess the opposite is you think punters love women so much that they deserve money for doing whatever you like to them, instead of using that love of women to date and you know, not have a massive power imbalance. Which seems unlikely.

I'm not arguing the opposite, I'm just not agreeing with what seems to me to be a blanket statement which I don't know to be true. I'm not massively pro sex work by the way, or pro punters - definitely not. You seem to be forcing me to argue the case. I'm much more concerned with harm reduction.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Well, I guess the opposite is you think punters love women so much that they deserve money for doing whatever you like to them, instead of using that love of women to date and you know, not have a massive power imbalance. Which seems unlikely.

I'm not arguing the opposite, I'm just not agreeing with what seems to me to be a blanket statement which I don't know to be true. I'm not massively pro sex work by the way, or pro punters - definitely not. You seem to be forcing me to argue the case. I'm much more concerned with harm reduction.

Ok, so as above - how do you know who’s trafficked and who isn’t?

consenting adult
@Coronawireless

That is just the thing though.There have been many studies that show that women who go into ' the trade' have likely been sexualised at a young age. Their 'consent' is often taken away at a young age.

Male sex workers are often ignored completely by the media and politicians, leaving most of the public to think it's just exclusively women.

Around the world, the estimate is that at least 80% of those in prostitution are female. The estimate for the UK is high 80s to 90%. Of course the actual percentage varies with locality. In many smaller places nearly all will be female, while the highest numbers of males was found in London, at about a third.

[quote Sundaysunfay]@Pumperthepumper, We live in very different worlds. I will continue to provide support & practical support for other sex workers. It's not pretend it's real practical support & me also being a Whore has no bearing on that. I'm loading up my van now with food, clothes medical supplies. We will drive around doing a mental head count, checking if any new girls are out, trying to track down any Mia. We will take reports from the girls of anyone to look out for. You may not agree with it but what I do is real & important.[/quote]
Practical support is important, probably life-saving for some of the women and girls you will see today. And I certainly don't believe that prostitutes are responsible for the harm that prostitution causes to society in general and women and girls in particular. And my objection to framing prostitution as work like any other does not mean I judge any women or men for working in prostitution.

I can want both - support for prostituted women and girls, day-to-day and exit programs as well as the Nordic Model being implemented in the UK.

The data from Germany certainly shows just how horrific the effects of decriminalisation are for those working in prostitution.

Ok, so as above - how do you know who’s trafficked and who isn’t?

Why do you keep badgering me with this? I'm not claiming to know, I've said that I don't know the answer to your question. I'm making an assumption that decriminalisation is safer for women, because it means they don't have to put themselves in risky situations to make a living. If you know otherwise, then please tell me.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Ok, so as above - how do you know who’s trafficked and who isn’t?

Why do you keep badgering me with this? I'm not claiming to know, I've said that I don't know the answer to your question. I'm making an assumption that decriminalisation is safer for women, because it means they don't have to put themselves in risky situations to make a living. If you know otherwise, then please tell me.

The answer is very obviously, you don’t know. You can’t know. So you use prostitutes knowing there’s a good chance the one you’re paying is trafficked.

The answer is very obviously, you don’t know. You can’t know. So you use prostitutes knowing there’s a good chance the one you’re paying is trafficked.

It's so odd the way you keep addressing me as if I'm about to go out and pay for sex.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Ok, so as above - how do you know who’s trafficked and who isn’t?

Why do you keep badgering me with this? I'm not claiming to know, I've said that I don't know the answer to your question. I'm making an assumption that decriminalisation is safer for women, because it means they don't have to put themselves in risky situations to make a living. If you know otherwise, then please tell me.

I know you're not asking me, but I really recommend reading up on the situation in Germany. Prostitution was decriminalised there 25 years ago and the situation has worsened for women and girls working in prostitution on every measure. Pay, conditions, violence, housing, access to justice, trafficking, exploitation, health. Everything is worse.

So much so that some of the prostitutes who campaigned for decriminalisation back then have publicly said the outcome is not what they expected, that decriminalisation clearly didn't work to make the lives of prostitutes women and girls better. The German parliament keeps trying to fix the problem but it cannot unless it changes its approach to prostitution.

There is a documentary series on German TV showing the full horror of the situation. And it has absolutely nothing to do with moral superiority or some kind of righteous Christian judgement. It was motivated by wanting to show the suffering of these women and girls out of a desire to help people understand that no progressive society should ever allow this to happen. It is a stain on the German state that this is going on. Just as the managed zone in Leeds is a stain on the city's leadership.

Thanks CharlieParley, I'll look into that. Maybe I'm being naive about decriminalisation and where it leads.

[quote Coronawireless]@Pumperthepumper
You keep saying that sex workers are trafficked or that a punter will go to a girl who can’t refuse his demands. That’s not sex work. It’s rape.[/quote]
But this is exactly what's happening under the banner "sex work"
I agree it's rape, but it's also very clear these scenarios happen to sex workers.

It's supply and demand, as demand grows and the supply chain falls thin, then need to get more products (women) on the street, they do this through trafficking. Just because a small minority of women claim to be happy with their "choice" doesn't mean it doesn't have wider implications for society.

I speak/ work with exited women of the sex trade and they all were adamant they were free of choice, even for years after, they still believed that, once they had got past the shame and guilt and many other obstacles they realised they were not making a free choice at all. This is a very common story amongst exited women.
Decriminalization has been a disaster in Germany as a pp said. The Nordic model is the best way forward I can see.

Many good points here. Slavery is work too, but we don’t celebrate it, and most of us oppose it.

Gosh, yes. The intent is for exploiters and abusers earnings made from the women they exploit to be deodorised/normalised. Also for the men who are happy to give a few quid to dehumanise, abuse, use and exploit women to be given a free reign to do so.

"For every one woman totally happily allowing multiple men to take her up the arse for a tenner, spit on her, choke her, pass on disease to her,"

I don't know where you're getting this from, but for escorts(the legal form of sex work) the average rate is usually between £100-£200 per hour. "High class" escorts in big cities may even charge more.

Sex workers have a right to consent just like anyone else- spitting or choking her would be assault and forcing anal or unprotected sex against her wishes would be rape. Legalised prostitution does not mean the client has a free pass to do what he wants.

"Decriminalization has been a disaster in Germany as a pp said."

Germany doesn't have decriminalisation. It has legalisation.

@MargaritaPie

"Decriminalization has been a disaster in Germany as a pp said."

Germany doesn't have decriminalisation. It has legalisation.

Apologies your right, I got my words mixed up.

Here is an interesting article on Germany.

www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/en/2018/06/19/the-german-model-17-years-after-the-legalization-of-prostitution/

@MargaritaPie

"For every one woman totally happily allowing multiple men to take her up the arse for a tenner, spit on her, choke her, pass on disease to her,"

I don't know where you're getting this from, but for escorts(the legal form of sex work) the average rate is usually between £100-£200 per hour. "High class" escorts in big cities may even charge more.

Sex workers have a right to consent just like anyone else- spitting or choking her would be assault and forcing anal or unprotected sex against her wishes would be rape. Legalised prostitution does not mean the client has a free pass to do what he wants.

Are you kidding? Have you seen the current rape conviction stats? Good luck to any sex worker trying to get the CPS to charge a punter with rape / assault when only about 4% of any sexual assaults at all result in a conviction. You can be a virgin teenager dragged into a bush in broad daylight and still not get a prosecution at the moment (and I know a young woman rhos happened to and the CPS did not charge). And good luck to you believing in this kind of rubbish.

Ultimately, I have no truck with the “some women find it really works for them!” argument. Some “high class” drug dealers and white collar fraudsters find illegal transactions work super nice for them too. That doesn’t mean that we decriminalise fraud and drug dealing, does it? Or that many small time drug dealers are poor, exploited and living in marginalise communities with not much choice? We don’t say ah it’s okay that drugs wreak horrific effects on individuals and communities because a few people find that it’s a job that fits really well around childcare, and really, between consenting adults what’s the harm?

It’s amazing the lengths some people will go to, to put out weird fantasies about sex work. I don’t buy that there are loads of happy hookers working safely out of nice houses having a great time buying lovely shoes with the proceeds. Even the person on this thread claiming to be a sex worker is talking about going out in a van checking if girls are missing on the streets and taking them medical supplies and food (why do they need food and medical supplies if prostitution is so great and lucrative?) Which is it, then, girls in unsafe situations on the streets in need of medical supplies, or suburban women selling sex out of nice houses because it suits their lifestyle?