"Sex Work Is Work" is a shit slogan.

[ScreamingMeMe]

I know the intent behind it is that sex work is nothing to be ashamed of, and it absolutely isn't. But there isn't a great deal of nuance to it, is there?

For every self-proclaimed "happy hooker" or Only Fans worker, there will be 1000s of women who have been abused and/or trafficed whose "choice" to do sex work wasn't really a choice at all, whose lives are grim and shit.

"Sex work is work" makes no such distinctions. So can we really expect the men who use sex workers to?

I'm trying to think of a better slogan, but can't come up with anything quite as catchy. But maybe simple, catchy slogans aren't possible for complex issues.

"Don't Shame Sex Workers"?

I dunno...

It is a shit slogan. It also prompts the response ‘and?’. I mean 5 year old children working with dangerous machinery in an environment of toxic chemicals making cheap fashion items are ‘working’.

So there’s another slogan ‘child labour is work’. It doesn’t make it ok, or make the children safe or excluded from being exploited or make it morally or ethically right. It is however technically ‘work’ so it’s true.

irresistibleoverwhelm, have you seen the client conviction rate in Sweden for paying for sex? There were just two convictions in a 13 year period.

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf p38

Meanwhile in NZ which has decriminalisation:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/14/new-zealand-sex-worker-wins-six-figure-sexual-harassment-payout

"That doesn’t mean that we decriminalise fraud and drug dealing, does it? "

This is a different topic but I do think drugs should be decriminalised (that is possession of small amounts for personal use, not dealing them). Portugal decriminalised all drugs about 20 years ago and has had a lot of success with it. Drug addicts in Portugal are given help, not criminalised. A growling list of countries are now legalising or decriminalising cannabis.

Passing laws to ban or criminalise things which could potentially be harmful isn't always the answer. If there's a product or service in high demand people will find a way no matter what the law says(and this way may put the people involved in greater risk of harm).

@MargaritaPie

"For every one woman totally happily allowing multiple men to take her up the arse for a tenner, spit on her, choke her, pass on disease to her,"

I don't know where you're getting this from, but for escorts(the legal form of sex work) the average rate is usually between £100-£200 per hour. "High class" escorts in big cities may even charge more.

Sex workers have a right to consent just like anyone else- spitting or choking her would be assault and forcing anal or unprotected sex against her wishes would be rape. Legalised prostitution does not mean the client has a free pass to do what he wants.

Another poster responded better to this than I can but I just wanted to add - have you listened to the podcast ‘who killed Emma’? It’s a real eye opener in terms of the relationship between sex workers and the police. You’re very, very naive if you think raped prostitutes are looked after by the police.

Why can’t we talk about men’s choice not to pay and exploit women (and other men) for sex?

I had this conversation with a male friend recently. I said I despise all men who use prostitutes. His response was "really? That's quite extreme!"

So, even my thoughtful kind friend thinks I am "extreme" for saying I despise men who pay to get access to women's bodies.

I thought not paying to use women was a pretty low bar to consider someone a decent man, but apparently even that is too high.

MargaritaPie, I don’t know where you get your numbers from. The conviction numbers are significantly higher and your report is from 2012 I think? Below is a more recent article about it in English.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/outlawing-the-purchase-of-sex-has-been-key-to-swedens-success-in-reducing-prostitution/wcm/5b287da7-cb3d-44a0-ae5f-6fc33c9042cc/amp/

Sweden has currently a public investigation running to evaluate the law and many argue for a compulsory custodial sentence (today you can get up to 4 years in prison but more often the buyers pay fines and people argue that punishments should be harder.

www.regeringen.se/regeringsuppdrag/2020/10/uppdrag-till-brottsforebyggande-radet-att-folja-upp-tillampningen-av-sexkopsbrott/?TSPD_101_R0=088d4528d9ab2000582ec54c43c04328a7c1962828b0c57a2ea2785fa78d530895a996966fffb9f5083afcf8d81430004ce7596a9da4fdc586581fe848d44a8877f1430c9a1d3b295e490a646204cf168c156c778e7f0f2fa85f5b7c61c1d7dd

Notably, the Swedish acceptance of people buying sex is non-existent. A Swedish popular Tv personality was caught doing it and he lost his job, his business, his girlfriend and his reputation.

www.tellerreport.com/news/2020-05-31-paolo-roberto-rose-from-street-fighter-to-tv-star---now-buying-sex-made-him-a-wreck-and-destroyed-his-entire-career.S1l64mZnL.html

Before stating that the Swedish mode is a failure based on an outdated report. I suggest that we wait for the result of the public investigation.

As a side note, Sweden had a transgender treatment similar to Tavistock, but that was stopped. This termination of treating minors was not due a a lawsuit but due to a public investigation into the evidence based outcome of treating this particular group. It was found substandard and lacking evidence for long term positive results to balance the potential risk, so it was terminated.

Swedish society is quite methodological and efficient. I suggest we wait for the report. Initial evidence seems promising though and, as I mentioned, the discussion seems to be about making sentences more severe. In addition to evaluating how the police is applying the law, links to trafficking, cooperation with social services etc.

Above was for @MargaritaPie

It’s amazing the lengths some people will go to, to put out weird fantasies about sex work.
I agree, and yet the thing many individualistic, liberal, choice feminists never seem to explain is:
Why wealthy women tend not to be sex workers
Why women in poverty are more likely to be sex workers
Why vulnerable women are more likely to be sex workers than non vulnerable wome
Why men don't seem to be doing all the things that are apparently empowering for women
Why all this empowering sex work happens to align with what men (as a class) think women ought to be sexually

When men and wealthy women are doing all avenues of sex work in the same numbers are poorer and vulnerable women, then I'll be open to changing my mind on it.

Sundaysunfay unfortunately a lot of activism these days is slogan-led. So we may as well have a good slogan, eh? Of course there should be work to support people behind the slogan, but this is what people are drawn in by, rightly or wrongly. In fact a lot of people don't look or think much beyond the slogan, unfortunately.

As a feminist I think it's important to support sex workers, as most of them are women. I'm open to learning anout the best ways to do this.

Your second post about going out in a van and looking for missing girls and supplying girls with good and medical supplies contradicts your first about how it's just a job, you realise that, right?

@MargaritaPie

"Decriminalization has been a disaster in Germany as a pp said."

Germany doesn't have decriminalisation. It has legalisation.

I'll just repost my comment to you from a previous thread, shall I?

》》

Prostitution was not illegal in Germany prior to the 2002 law. So, although to someone who doesn't understand how the German Sittengesetz worked it seems like it has been legalised, it has actually been decriminalised.

And I find it odd, MargaritaPie that you are both arguing the German model isn't the one you want anyway AND doubt whether it's all that bad anyway

So, FAOD, yes, it's been horrific. So much so that a number of the prostituted women who campaigned to decriminalise prostition 25 years ago, and who celebrated the 2002 law now say that it was a disaster. So bad indeed that Germany passed another law in 2017, attempting to protect prostituted women and men. But that's not working either.

Germany is infamous now as the mega-brothel state, where you pay peanuts to fuck as many women as you like for as long as you like in any way you like. From street prostitution to luxury call girls, prices have dropped, attacks are up and access to justice has disappeared completely. Numbers of prostituted women have quadrupled, three quarters of that increase comes from trafficking mostly poor women and frequently underage girls.

By all means argue against the Nordic Model and for full decriminalisation. But if you want to look like you know what you're talking about I'd stay away from the state of prostitution in Germany. Especially when you know so little about it.

《《

"It’s a real eye opener in terms of the relationship between sex workers and the police."

Do you think the Nordic Model would improve that? This is a recent tweet from RedUmbrellaSwe twitter.com/RedUmbrellaSwe/status/1407817539976056838

Basically the police are giving a sex worker who has been exposed the choice of losing her income and going hungry, or continuing to see clients and be evicted by the looks of it.

One gripe I have with the Nordic Model is those who support it don't seem to be willing to offer to pay money to sex workers to compensate them for any lost earnings.

Also pleased to hear that crime is apparently so low in Sweden the police have time to sit and watch the home of a sex worker all day so they can evict her if a client goes in.

quote:
"Last week, one of our members, a middle aged Swedish woman who lives in a south Swedish town, was visited by the police. They told her that her landlord had been informed that she is selling sex in her apartment. And that she will be evicted if she doesn’t stop immediately.

The police told her that they will be watching her apartment and if one more client comes to see her, they will inform the landlord. If the landlord refuses to evict, they will be charged with pimping.

Our member is distraught and doesn’t know what to do now. She is too sick to work a 9-5 job and she has debts to pay. For family reasons she is not able to move to a new city. And she likes her apartment, her home."

"And I find it odd, MargaritaPie that you are both arguing the German model isn't the one you want anyway AND doubt whether it's all that bad anyway"

IMO I think decriminalisation (eg as in New Zealand) would be the best model.

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

I don't think I've seen anyone advocate for legalisation(Germany), it seems to be either the Nordic Model or complete decrim.

@MargaritaPie could you please post your sources?

There are a lot of problems with trafficking in Sweden where women from all over Europe are sold by pimps in flats. This is illegal (not for the woman) but the pump may go to jail and the rent contract terminated. Possibly there could be a stronger cooperation between social services and the police but this appears to be investigated in the official report.

There are a lot of articles on this, but mostly are in Swedish. I would be delighted to post the articles and reports in Swedish if you read Swedish?

If there is a specific case you are interested in, I can maybe find the Swedish article and translate so we get the full facts. I don’t think a random quote from a nameless woman who may or may not lose her rental contract is helpful.

I believe the Swedish police is quite busy unfortunately. However, my understanding is that they have less work censoring women online (less of a focus) which means that they have more freedom in chasing illegal activities such as brothels and sex buyers.

Awful slogan.

You can condemn an activity and not normalise it without condemning those who work in it. The focus should be on helping those women who want to leave get out of prostitution, closing down sites such as the one Harriet Harman campaigns against, and changing attitudes to sex, starting with the so-called porn passport.

"could you please post your sources?"

I did:
twitter.com/RedUmbrellaSwe/status/1407817539976056838

From their website: redumbrella.se
"Red Umbrella Sweden is a Swedish organisation advocating for the rights, safety, justice and self determination of sex workers. All our members are current or former sex workers with lived experience of doing sex work. No one else is allowed to become a member."

In the case in their Twitter post, it appears the sex worker is independent (she doesn't have a pimp).

So how does the sex buying law help her? Her options now are 1. lose income and go hungry 2. be evicted or 3. meet in cars to sell sex or clients' homes instead of her own to avoid police detection(the above tweets mention she is afraid of this option)

Possibly there could be a stronger cooperation between social services"

It's too bad there is now less funding and resources for Social Services in Sweden because money has been siphoned to policing the law instead:

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf p38

Ok, so from that Twitter thread, it appears that you only lose your rental agreement if multiple prostitutes work in the same flat. Threshold of relevance / “väsentlighetskrav”.

mobile.twitter.com/petraostergren/status/1408028682527154176

Tweet above quotes the relevant paragraphs in Swedish in addition to the legal source work (in Sweden you use a legal source work as a secondary source of law, Supreme Court judgments are less relevant than this particular source) and a work from what I believe is a professor in criminal law.

The organisation is replying that they didn’t know this and asks about other applications (hotels, etc). They are getting the advice to contact a lawyer (makes sense).

Your report is still from 2012. I think we should look at more recent spending than almost a decade ago.

I don’t know how money is being allocated between different causes. I don’t think that there is any money for “prostitution” which gets divided between police and social services.

Sweden has one of the highest tax pressures in the world and generally an excellent social system. Compared to the UK, a huge amount of money is spent on childcare (helping women) and eldercare (helping women) leading to one of the smallest pay gaps in the western world. This is obviously very important which is why there currently is an official investigation into it.

Sweden has spent a lot of money on immigration as they took one of the highest number of migrants per capital in Europe. I don’t have the time to trawl the internet for Swedish social spending trends per cause over the past few years, but happy to look at anything you post.

Do we have any other sources for the failure of the Swedish system on prostitution?

In addition to a tweet from an organisation which seems to seriously misunderstand the current legislation?

And a decade old report?

"it appears that you only lose your rental agreement if multiple prostitutes work in the same flat."

In that case it's unfortunate the Swedish police don't seem to be aware of that, seeing as they're harassing independent women with the threat of eviction who sell sex alone in a rented property.

The UN report is almost a decade old now yes, but it at least sums up the first 13 years of the Nordic Model in Sweden.

Red Umbrella Sweden (the members of whom are exclusively adults who sell or have sold sex) themselves advocate for complete decrim.

redumbrella.se/

As well as everyone who has signed this letter:
decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

If the Nordic Model is so great, why is there so much resistance including from those who sell/have sold sex themselves?

Hopefully they will stop harassing the woman and instead stay outside the flat and arrest every single one of the disgusting men buying sex - which is illegal in Sweden.

There will always be differing opinions, some prostitutes may want it legalised, many may not. At the moment, the social security system in Sweden is good, nobody is starving. There is a good benefits system and there are a fair amount of jobs.

I don’t think that as a society we should encourage a world where women’s bodies are commodities. I find that disgusting and wrong. In addition, there is a massive trade in trafficked women and underaged women who all are very vulnerable. There is often a connection to drugs. However, I understand that opinions differ.

An official report looking at all this (as is in progress) will hopefully give enough information to assess the current legislation.

There was a documentary series a while ago about women in the Managed area in Leeds (now closed down). If sex work is work just like any other job and customers are decent people then I would have thought that this area would have attracted happy, healthy workers and pleasant customers. The women featured in this documentary were all actually very vulnerable. Some had spent their childhood in care, others had been sexually abused as children. All had substance abuse problems. They talked frankly about the dangers they faced, the revolting treatment they faced and their lack of choice. One woman had a customer that seemed to befriend her and she thought he would help her- but he took her miles away from home for a weekend and just left her there. Another spoke of having got off drugs whilst in prison and getting a job but finding it impossible to stay away from drugs due to the awful memories of the treatment she'd suffered as a 'sex worker'. There were some shocking statistics quoted about the proportion of sex workers from vulnerable backgrounds and with drug problems.

I know this is only a small example, but some of the very well informed posters on this board also have lots of statistics that back up the fact that the majority of sex workers are (at best) vulnerable people putting up with abuse due to lack of choices rather than the 'happy hooker' fantasy that some would have us believe is the norm.

For those who argue that most sex workers do it for flexible working and good pay- why are women trafficked it to the 'industry'? Why are there not middle class women everywhere lining up to freely do this work? Why do so many prostitutes have drug problems?

Of course poorer women from difficult backgrounds are more likely to choose sex work than a woman with more options. A poorer woman is also more likely to work as a cleaner or a carer. None of them are jobs you’d choose if you had better options. Prostitution would be at the bottom of the pile for me. But it’s a symptom rather than a cause of poverty and vulnerability. It would of course be good if vulnerable women did not need to earn money in this way but many do, especially if they have a drug habit to support. The drugs lead to the sex work though rather than the other way around. So to stop the sex work you’d have to go back in time to the woman’s childhood.

I would never ever ever EVER support legalisation of prostitution for all the reasons stated by pps above. Decriminalisation is different and as I understand it, only the woman herself is decriminalised, not her pimp or the brothel manager or the punter.

A punter who pays for sex can be committing a crime as above but it’s a different and far lesser crime than if he was raping the non-consenting woman. I know it can be very hard for the police and courts to establish beyond reasonable doubt which of the two is happening. (Just as it can very hard for a man who rapes his vulnerable girlfriend to be convicted beyond doubt. It doesn’t mean no man should ever be allowed to have sex with his girlfriend though). It would be great if there could be more focus on how the police and courts could more accurately and speedily process these issues.

@MargaritaPie

"And I find it odd, MargaritaPie that you are both arguing the German model isn't the one you want anyway AND doubt whether it's all that bad anyway"

IMO I think decriminalisation (eg as in New Zealand) would be the best model.

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

I don't think I've seen anyone advocate for legalisation(Germany), it seems to be either the Nordic Model or complete decrim.

I'll repeat again, you are wrong. Germany decriminalised prostitution. I know this is difficult to understand when you don't speak the language or understand the German legal system. They did not legalise prostitution in the way that this is understood in the Anglosphere.

Germans themselves do not make the distinction between decriminalisation and legalisation. They talk about prohibitive approaches to prostitution (including abolitionist approaches like the Nordic Model) and liberalisation also known as Sex Work or Sexarbeit approaches (where prostitution is framed as work like any other, such as the approaches used in Germany, The Netherlands, New Zealand) and regulatory approaches (like the one used in Austria where prostitutes legally have to register, undergo mandatory health checks and adhere to strict rules about business hours etc). The latter is what is meant by legalisation in the Anglosphere.

Regardless of which model politicians favour, there are differences in how each country's approaches work in practice, which is why you think the New Zealand approach is not the same approach used in Germany. They are though. They are both decriminalisation approaches, but in practice they are implemented in different ways because these are different countries.

As for the well documented issues that prostitutes face in Sweden, these are not due to an inherent problem with the Nordic Model, but with specific issues in implementing its measures, partially caused by clumsily drafted articles in the law and compounded by a lack of training and understanding by the police. That the police do not always enforce the law accurately should come as no surprise to any of us. There are many other times and places that saw law enforcement lag behind the law.