"Sex Work Is Work" is a shit slogan.

[ScreamingMeMe]

I know the intent behind it is that sex work is nothing to be ashamed of, and it absolutely isn't. But there isn't a great deal of nuance to it, is there?

For every self-proclaimed "happy hooker" or Only Fans worker, there will be 1000s of women who have been abused and/or trafficed whose "choice" to do sex work wasn't really a choice at all, whose lives are grim and shit.

"Sex work is work" makes no such distinctions. So can we really expect the men who use sex workers to?

I'm trying to think of a better slogan, but can't come up with anything quite as catchy. But maybe simple, catchy slogans aren't possible for complex issues.

"Don't Shame Sex Workers"?

I dunno...

[Coronawireless]

@Pumperthepumper
You’re still confusing sex work with rape.
We all know that women are trafficked and raped. This isn’t sex work.
Sex workers retiring en masse won’t stop people from being raped.

Regarding actual sex workers, where is your evidence that the majority come from traumatic backgrounds? And if they do come from difficult or abusive backgrounds (and for example need the money for drugs) how will removing this source of income benefit them? The sex work after all is not the cause of their problems. Banning sex work will not take away their background.

Don’t get me wrong, I would hate to see prostitution being legitimised or promoted as a career. But these questions come up all the time and until they’re answered to everyone’s satisfaction, including the people who choose for WHATEVER reason to make a living out of it, no one will get it right about prostitution.

[Pumperthepumper]

@MargaritaPie

""If being a sex worker was a safe, lucrative career option men would be doing it in spades."

Male sex workers are often ignored completely by the media and politicians, leaving most of the public to think it's just exclusively women. It's worth mentioning a search of any of the escort directories for active escorts reveals between 1/4 and a 1/3 are male(you can try this yourself if you are happy to access such a website to try this). Out of tens of thousands that is quite a lot.

"I don’t see why the existence of consenting sex workers should be used to justify rape and slavery?"

Noone is justifying rape and slavery, they are illegal and noone is campaigning to change that.

Here’s a really interesting study on those figures:

prostitution.procon.org/questions/how-many-prostitutes-are-in-the-united-states-and-the-rest-of-the-world/

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I see where you're coming from DoingItMyself. And I'm sure many women in sex work (using this phrase to try to be respectful but i recognise it's controversial!) do feel the way you've described and do have difficult pasts etc. But this is sadly the case for so many people. Obviously with sex there is the added factor of physical intimacy (again, maybe not the right wording) and consent, and the risks involved. None of which is trivial. But for example when you talk about having to have sex with whoever for the money, that's a coercive situation which isn't always the case and in fact women who do this often set the terms. I don't think I'm being naive saying that, obviously there are horrific numbers of women and even children who have no options at all, and that is unequivocally appalling. I'm just not sure it's accurate to characterise the entire industry that way.

I'm interested in what would make a difference to women who feel they have no option, who are traumatised, or who are victims of trafficking. And what's the best way to make sure anyone involved in sex work is safe. I'm not sure what the best approach is but I feel sometimes people who are anti don't listen to those with actual experience, unless it fits with the victimhood angle. Are we sure that's not confirmation bias? It just seems a bit Victorian, shades of the poor 'fallen woman'.

[Pumperthepumper]

[quote Coronawireless]@Pumperthepumper
You’re still confusing sex work with rape.
We all know that women are trafficked and raped. This isn’t sex work.
Sex workers retiring en masse won’t stop people from being raped.

Regarding actual sex workers, where is your evidence that the majority come from traumatic backgrounds? And if they do come from difficult or abusive backgrounds (and for example need the money for drugs) how will removing this source of income benefit them? The sex work after all is not the cause of their problems. Banning sex work will not take away their background.

Don’t get me wrong, I would hate to see prostitution being legitimised or promoted as a career. But these questions come up all the time and until they’re answered to everyone’s satisfaction, including the people who choose for WHATEVER reason to make a living out of it, no one will get it right about prostitution.[/quote]
Here, under ‘factors driving sex work’

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303927/A_Review_of_the_Literature_on_sex_workers_and_social_exclusion.pdf

And of course women and girls are being trafficked for sex work! Are you joking?

[Sundaysunfay]

@Pumperthepumper, We live in very different worlds. I will continue to provide support & practical support for other sex workers. It's not pretend it's real practical support & me also being a Whore has no bearing on that. I'm loading up my van now with food, clothes medical supplies. We will drive around doing a mental head count, checking if any new girls are out, trying to track down any Mia. We will take reports from the girls of anyone to look out for. You may not agree with it but what I do is real & important.

[Pumperthepumper]

@Aspiringmatriarch

I see where you're coming from DoingItMyself. And I'm sure many women in sex work (using this phrase to try to be respectful but i recognise it's controversial!) do feel the way you've described and do have difficult pasts etc. But this is sadly the case for so many people. Obviously with sex there is the added factor of physical intimacy (again, maybe not the right wording) and consent, and the risks involved. None of which is trivial. But for example when you talk about having to have sex with whoever for the money, that's a coercive situation which isn't always the case and in fact women who do this often set the terms. I don't think I'm being naive saying that, obviously there are horrific numbers of women and even children who have no options at all, and that is unequivocally appalling. I'm just not sure it's accurate to characterise the entire industry that way.

I'm interested in what would make a difference to women who feel they have no option, who are traumatised, or who are victims of trafficking. And what's the best way to make sure anyone involved in sex work is safe. I'm not sure what the best approach is but I feel sometimes people who are anti don't listen to those with actual experience, unless it fits with the victimhood angle. Are we sure that's not confirmation bias? It just seems a bit Victorian, shades of the poor 'fallen woman'.

Because the logic of this is: if you, a punter, find a willing, non-drug addicted, non-pimped, financially secure and in control prostitute who can say ‘absolutely not’ to your demands, where do you go? Do you take no for an answer? Or do you find someone less fussy?

[Pumperthepumper]

[quote Sundaysunfay]@Pumperthepumper, We live in very different worlds. I will continue to provide support & practical support for other sex workers. It's not pretend it's real practical support & me also being a Whore has no bearing on that. I'm loading up my van now with food, clothes medical supplies. We will drive around doing a mental head count, checking if any new girls are out, trying to track down any Mia. We will take reports from the girls of anyone to look out for. You may not agree with it but what I do is real & important.[/quote]
Sure you do. Of course, you could put a stop to it by not pretending it’s a job or justifying it. You could do all that without propping up the industry yourself.

[Coronawireless]

@Pumperthepumper
You’re still confusing sex work with rape.

[Pumperthepumper]

[quote Coronawireless]@Pumperthepumper
You’re still confusing sex work with rape.[/quote]
How? You’ve said that a few times now.

[Coronawireless]

And as I said, sex work may be a result if a difficult background but does not cause it.

[Pumperthepumper]

@Coronawireless

And as I said, sex work may be a result if a difficult background but does not cause it.

You read that entire report you asked for very quickly.

[Coronawireless]

@Pumperthepumper
You keep saying that sex workers are trafficked or that a punter will go to a girl who can’t refuse his demands. That’s not sex work. It’s rape.

[Pumperthepumper]

[quote Coronawireless]@Pumperthepumper
You keep saying that sex workers are trafficked or that a punter will go to a girl who can’t refuse his demands. That’s not sex work. It’s rape.[/quote]
It’s rape as a result of the sex work industry.

[Aspiringmatriarch]

Because the logic of this is: if you, a punter, find a willing, non-drug addicted, non-pimped, financially secure and in control prostitute who can say ‘absolutely not’ to your demands, where do you go? Do you take no for an answer? Or do you find someone less fussy?

I'm probably being obtuse but are you trying to get me to imagine myself as a punter? And also assuming that as a punter I would seek someone 'less fussy', i.e. someone who can't say no? Obviously that's a bit of a stretch for me but I would say that anyone who does seek out a trafficked prostitute should go to prison for a very long time. Not likely to happen sadly, but that's certainly where I'd want to focus, politically and socially.

[Coronawireless]

Rape is rape.
Being a sex worker doesn’t mean people are entitled to rape you. The law protects such women.

[Pumperthepumper]

@Aspiringmatriarch

Because the logic of this is: if you, a punter, find a willing, non-drug addicted, non-pimped, financially secure and in control prostitute who can say ‘absolutely not’ to your demands, where do you go? Do you take no for an answer? Or do you find someone less fussy?

I'm probably being obtuse but are you trying to get me to imagine myself as a punter? And also assuming that as a punter I would seek someone 'less fussy', i.e. someone who can't say no? Obviously that's a bit of a stretch for me but I would say that anyone who does seek out a trafficked prostitute should go to prison for a very long time. Not likely to happen sadly, but that's certainly where I'd want to focus, politically and socially.

How do you know if they’re trafficked?

[Pumperthepumper]

@Coronawireless

Rape is rape.
Being a sex worker doesn’t mean people are entitled to rape you. The law protects such women.

It really, really doesn’t. You don’t seem to know much about this industry if you think everyone woman in the sex industry who is raped is protected by the law.

[CharlieParley]

@Coronawireless

I was personally playing Devil’s advocate because I don’t agree with sex work.
But my question is valid. Who decides these things? Why should one person’s opinion stop a consenting adult from engaging in a transaction with another consenting adult which harms no one?

Interesting question, but I do believe that prostitution harms others. It harms all women and girls if we are seen as commodities to be bought and sold.

There is ample research for instance that rates of sexual harassment against women and girls goes up when a new strip club moves into an area. And in Leeds, all women and girls were less safe in the vicinity of the managed zone.

[Aspiringmatriarch]

It’s rape as a result of the sex work industry.

Surely it's rape as a result of sex trafficking and all the associated risk factors for that? Or do you mean that the existence of any kind of sex industry = rape culture? I have heard that argument but I'm not sure it's true. Not that I'm certain, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that because you can theoretically pay for something means that you feel unilaterally entitled to it.

[Rosalisa]

The Oldest Profession line winds me up too. If money were no object and you needed a surgeon or a lawyer, would you want the youngest and most inexperienced one and pay the most for them?

Women weren't even allowed to own property or bank accounts until very recently in human history so this profession bollocks is truly utter pish.

[Pumperthepumper]

@Aspiringmatriarch

It’s rape as a result of the sex work industry.

Surely it's rape as a result of sex trafficking and all the associated risk factors for that? Or do you mean that the existence of any kind of sex industry = rape culture? I have heard that argument but I'm not sure it's true. Not that I'm certain, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that because you can theoretically pay for something means that you feel unilaterally entitled to it.

Why not? You’re happy to pay to literally do whatever you like to someone’s body, why would you then not try and get it cheaper elsewhere? And from there, why would you not try and get it for free?

And generally, paying to offload inside another human being doesn’t scream ‘I have a massive respect for this person’ - why wouldn’t that translate into low-level misogyny outside of that transaction?

[Pumperthepumper]

@Aspiringmatriarch

It’s rape as a result of the sex work industry.

Surely it's rape as a result of sex trafficking and all the associated risk factors for that? Or do you mean that the existence of any kind of sex industry = rape culture? I have heard that argument but I'm not sure it's true. Not that I'm certain, but it doesn't seem obvious to me that because you can theoretically pay for something means that you feel unilaterally entitled to it.

Also you haven’t said how punters know the sex worker is trafficked.

[CharlieParley]

@Coronawireless

If they don’t have a choice it’s rape. Not the same thing as what we’re talking about here.

There are three necessary conditions for consent freely given: free choice of your partner, free choice of time, free choice of sexual activity engaged in.

The vast majority of those working in prostitution don't have a free choice in at least one of these. And sex without full consent is rape.

[Aspiringmatriarch]

Also you haven’t said how punters know the sex worker is trafficked.
How does it work in countries where it's decriminalised?