Dear Feminists: Be Meaner

[NonnyMouse1337]

Fantastic article that reflects views I've had for a long time. Always wished women would learn how to be more 'mean' and willing to centre women and women's rights instead of looking out for everyone else. We really won't get far unless this changes. Glad to see someone else articulate this so well.

theblisteringrebuttal.substack.com/p/4183e962-ded5-47f7-b89f-c49b9de6cbb5

So we know our girls are suffering sexual harassment in schools and yet the first page of this is all about how we need to be 'assertive but with caveats. This is not what it's about. We must stand up for ourselves and back up the talks with our daughters with daily demonstrations about how to defend themselves using verbal noise and verbal actions. We are disappearing into corners instead of testing what standing firm feels like. I would never allow anyone to undermine me or step in my space. I have know many women over the years who were wonderful at the theory of feminism but were pitiful in its execution.

I'm not traumatised by it precisely because i managed to stop anything happening, thanks Wbeezer This is what happens when we stop being afraid of the consequences. We become strong, we take control. Our daughters need to see feminism in action.

I was flashed at as a child and I shouted out loud and everyone came running. I have used the very loud voice to register anger at men on public transport who felt they could take advantage. No thanks, no caveats for me, I do not want girls to take any flak or have to be kind within their assertiveness. We need some Amazons lighting the way

@JustGotHere

I thagree mostly, but I dont think meanness is required. I think she’s describing the stigma around women’s anger, and how it is often read as attacking when we express it. It took me two years of therapy to accept that I even experienced anger, and when I did I quickly realized it was the defining emotion in my life.

My whole life, I’d been conditioned to think that anger was bad, selfish, even hateful. And of course I didn’t want to be any of those things, and so I swallowed my anger until I couldn’t even recognize it. I see this in the movement when women are accused of hate and hate speech and being selfish (exclusionary). To me, when that happens they are being punished for their anger. Anger is good, healthy, and often justified. It is not hate or persecution. And we have a right to it. Calling it meanness just reinforces the stigma. I think it would be better to embrace and nourish our anger, and be fearless in expressing it.

No, she described it correctly, trust me. Though I like your advice in general, it doesn't apply to me that much. Lesbians are being coerced, women in prison are assaulted, I have moved beyond what you describe. Let's face us, most of us have had some uncharitable thoughts at this point, I just say 'em out loud. There's only so much ppl can take. I am fearless in expressing it, but why must I not be mean to people who are hurting women? I am not mean to women that much though...perhaps gruff and blunt, but that's fine with me. I accept how I feel about all this because it's insane, and the reaction to it is actually healthy and natural.

@Grumpy Yes, I've had the same theory for a while now, about the decline of female hormones that keep you in nurturing mode. Menopause brings a great clarity about things, doesn't it? Which is probably why society hates older women so much.

@MoltenLasagne Berns and Posie Parker. I remember watching Posie on a podcast and thinking 'she's a bit mean' for not using pronouns. Now I'm right behind her.

I don’t mind being mean

Seems being kind goes only one way

Magdalen berns is how to do it

@highame

So we know our girls are suffering sexual harassment in schools and yet the first page of this is all about how we need to be 'assertive but with caveats. This is not what it's about. We must stand up for ourselves and back up the talks with our daughters with daily demonstrations about how to defend themselves using verbal noise and verbal actions. We are disappearing into corners instead of testing what standing firm feels like. I would never allow anyone to undermine me or step in my space. I have know many women over the years who were wonderful at the theory of feminism but were pitiful in its execution.

I'm not traumatised by it precisely because i managed to stop anything happening, thanks Wbeezer This is what happens when we stop being afraid of the consequences. We become strong, we take control. Our daughters need to see feminism in action.

I was flashed at as a child and I shouted out loud and everyone came running. I have used the very loud voice to register anger at men on public transport who felt they could take advantage. No thanks, no caveats for me, I do not want girls to take any flak or have to be kind within their assertiveness. We need some Amazons lighting the way

very based

Bumping this thread up again. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy hanging out on the FWR board. The women here are awesome at demonstrating it's ok to be forthright and unapologetic in your views. I'm less likely to say in real life "I'm sorry but..... insert mildly oppositional viewpoint" these days. I shouldn't apologise for having an opinion.

I recently watched a debate including Meghan Murphy, and a man was grilling her why was she not [paraphrased] “accepting of someone’s internal sense, why do we not extend them sympathy” and she responds with “Who cares?” which invokes a shocked “What?” from the trans person next to her.

Another man in the audience asks her about where is her empathy for trans people and calls her “unempathetic” and says her discussions should not only be “a rational discussion, but also an empathetic discussion”
Meghan replies: “I would argue it’s not empathetic to take money away from women’s rape crisis shelter (because they only offer services to women and not to men). I don’t think we need to lie in order to be empathetic. I’m not going to say something that’s untrue. I also find tran activism is incredibly unempathetic to women. We’re being vilified, smeared, fired, and threatened and physically attacked by trans activists for just trying to talk. We’re seeing things like TERFs die, kill TERFS, we’re being accused of being fascists and nazis because we’re making basic feminist arguments and trying to talk. The notion that feminists are not being empathetic because they’re trying to protect women’s rights... and trying to talk about ideas that are being incorporated into legislation that impacts our rights is ridiculous to be honest. Be empathetic to women. We’re talking about allowing males to enter into any women’s space they want, and we’re saying well who cares about these women’s feelings, these men feel a certain way, they want to be in their spaces. How is that empathetic to women? What about women’s feelings? What about girls feelings? What about girls who don’t want a grown man with his dick out in their changing room?” 👏🏼

She’s amazing.

I've seen that too. The incredulity that women would put themselves first!

I see post or people saying things like, “Im sorry, but I don’t want a man sharing toilets with me” etc.
I prefer saying, “I’m not sorry that I don’t want a male in the chasing rooms when I go to the gym, I’m not sorry I want girls in schools to have single sex spaces.” We should not be sorry for protecting and standing up for women’s and girls, whether it be their comfort, safety, dignity, beliefs or rights. Women and girls matter.

changing rooms* not chasing

Agree, Super.

MoltenLasagne I love 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar'. Thanks

I was on a plane - drunk boorish loud man being difficult, sat next to teenage girls, who chatted to him and kept him calm.
My (male) partner commented how good (skilled) the girls had been.

I was suddenly enraged because I realised for the first time how much time I'd spent as a young woman doing the same, placating angry men. Men must not realise how much time we spend doing this.

(Tbf to my partner, he did offer to sit next to angry man himself)

Can't a person in general be kind And stick up for themselves?

Not in everything they can't, no. Not when a person is framing a lack of them giving in to their unreasonable demands as "unkind". As Meghan made clear. I think this is a rather naive approach to life.

Secondly, what about if men were to act the same way you think is admirable?
Domestic violence? Why should I care.
Rape? Not my problem.
Pay gap? Doesn't bother me.

A large proportion of them do!

I don’t think anyone is saying being kind is opposite to standing up for ones rights.

What is being objected to, is being forced to give up women’s and girls rights, safety, dignity, privacy and beliefs in order to be “kind”.

And your second argument is just plain stupid.
When women are “being nasty people” they are fighting to maintain their rights, safety, dignity, privacy and beliefs.

Precisely what rights are being taken away from men when there is objection to domestic violence, rape, gender pay gap? Their right to be violent? Their right to rape? Their right to gender pay gap?

Hopefully you can see how pathetic you are being.

@ThisForUnpopularOpinions

Why do you consider kindness the opposite of standing up for one's rights? Can't a person in general be kind And stick up for themselves?

Secondly, what about if men were to act the same way you think is admirable?
Domestic violence? Why should I care.
Rape? Not my problem.
Pay gap? Doesn't bother me.

And so on. Would that be helpful or feel good?

Honestly, it seems to me that some feminists are just nasty people, who hide behind the lofty value of feminism to spread their nastiness. There's nothing noble about being mean or foul.

ThisForUnpopularOpinions, can I ask, do you think it's "unkind", "mean", "foul", or "nasty" for women and girls to say no to men or boys if those men or boys really want to see them naked or touch them?

Are we allowed to have boundaries at all? Or are we female people only here to be kind and service the needs of males?

So if we have a group of girls, who are doing PE at school, and are presented with a request from a male child to join them in the female changing rooms and to join their girls' PE class, what should the answer be?

a) say no, and hurt the boy's feelings.
b) say yes, to be kind, even though they will be suffering a disadvantage themselves

?

I would like to thank Mumsnet FWR for encouraging me to be less acquiescent lately. It's interesting, if a bit scary, to realise I can be not lovely and the world doesn't end.

In fact I find if I stick up for my boundaries it gives me space to be more generous in my dealings - a lot less passive aggressive seething if I can assert myself and focus on healthy responses rather than socially approved ones.

ThisForUnpopularOpinions, yeah, the Allies were such mean nasty people for not letting the Nazis invade Britain, weren’t they.
You’re right, they should have been inclusive to that nice Mr Hitler and his stormtroopers.
What’s a few trivialities like human rights and free speech, compared to a man having his feelings hurt.