Dear Feminists: Be Meaner

[NonnyMouse1337]

Fantastic article that reflects views I've had for a long time. Always wished women would learn how to be more 'mean' and willing to centre women and women's rights instead of looking out for everyone else. We really won't get far unless this changes. Glad to see someone else articulate this so well.

theblisteringrebuttal.substack.com/p/4183e962-ded5-47f7-b89f-c49b9de6cbb5

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Civil behaviour in the face of male entitlement and narcissism DOES NOT WORK.

Quite. The best thing is not to engage at all, but sometimes that's not possible.

[SpeedRunParent]

I wonder Wray some posters interpret kindness as. It's doesn't mean be a doormat. You can have firm boundaries and still be kind. You can say no, without explanation and still be kind about it, the idea that kindness is insidious seems contradictory to me. No one reasonably expects a person to not get fight back if under attack.
Are you conflating kindness with 'don't make a fuss'? Or 'it's unladylike to be assertive and insist on equality / good service / being treated well'? All of these things are totally repellent to me but I don't consider them to be related to kindness.

[PearPickingPorky]

@SirSamuelVimes

Anyone who thinks civility begets civility need only look at JK Rowling. Her essay is the epitome of firm, boundary holding civility. Read it, and tell me if there's anywhere she could have been more civil in her phrasing without taking away from her meaning.

Then go look at the response. Look at the death threats, the rape threats, the oral rape threats, the threats to her family. Look at how the stars of the Potter films, people whose fame and fortune are owed entirely to her, threw her to the wolves.

Civil behaviour in the face of male entitlement and narcissism DOES NOT WORK.

Yes, THIS!

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

You can say no, without explanation and still be kind about it

Objectively you can, but the problem is that women's needs and self care are being framed as "unkind" while male feelings are pandered to. It's extremely frustrating and I don't blame women for being angry at the double standards. It all sounds a bit holier than thou.

[Siblingquandary]

You can say no, without explanation and still be kind about it

Tried that, doesn't always work.

[PearPickingPorky]

@Siblingquandary

You can say no, without explanation and still be kind about it

Tried that, doesn't always work.

In the sex/gender debate, it doesnt ever work.

That's the thing about Patriarchy, it doesn't matter how polite you are about saying No to men. The issue is the No; a No is not acceptable.

[NormaSnorks]

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but this is why I hate the way the "Karen" meme has developed.
I often see "OK Karen" or similar being used as a way to silence older women who are trying to be firm, disagree or highlight bad behaviour or service.
I feel it's just another variation of the "Shut up, ugly invisible older woman" thing.

[SirSamuelVimes]

You can say no, without explanation and still be kind about it

You can't, when the act of saying no is in itself seen as an unkindness.

Transgender ideology: accept that a biological male is a woman in every way, and treat them in the exact way that a biological female would be treated.

Women: no, that doesn't work for us.

Transgender ideology: bigot! TERF! Why can't you just be kiiiiiiiiiind?!

[Cowbells]

@Weirdfan

I wonder who the rad fem on Twitter is?

I wondered that too. Why doesn't she offer a link - spread the word. Seems odd not to mention her name.

[Cowbells]

@SirSamuelVimes

Anyone who thinks civility begets civility need only look at JK Rowling. Her essay is the epitome of firm, boundary holding civility. Read it, and tell me if there's anywhere she could have been more civil in her phrasing without taking away from her meaning.

Then go look at the response. Look at the death threats, the rape threats, the oral rape threats, the threats to her family. Look at how the stars of the Potter films, people whose fame and fortune are owed entirely to her, threw her to the wolves.

Civil behaviour in the face of male entitlement and narcissism DOES NOT WORK.

Absolutely. The gleeful hatred and wilful misinterpretation of her words (ime by people who haven't read them) is misogyny in action. She is really hated for being successful, independent, strong, talented, opinionated, rich, generous, beautiful and honest.

[Doona]

I couldn't disagree more! But then, I don't think it's unkind to say no or express a different viewpoint. Kindness is a strength, the way I see it. Being docile is not particularly kind, I'm surprised people think it is, nor is being meek or pretending to agree. What's kind about that? It's just being fake.

[SirSamuelVimes]

[quote Sparklfairy]@SirSamuelVimes Don't you mean,

Transgender ideology: bigot! TERF! Why can't you just be kiiiiiiiiiind?! Suck my ladydick before I petrol bomb your house![/quote]
Yes, that's probably more accurate, sadly.

I suspect I was "being kind" by editing the violence out of the TRA narrative. Female socialisation is a tough thing to beat.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

She posted on the thread when it was first posted. @daenerysterfgaryen

No, she described it correctly, trust me. Though I like your advice in general, it doesn't apply to me that much. Lesbians are being coerced, women in prison are assaulted, I have moved beyond what you describe. Let's face us, most of us have had some uncharitable thoughts at this point, I just say 'em out loud. There's only so much ppl can take. I am fearless in expressing it, but why must I not be mean to people who are hurting women? I am not mean to women that much though...perhaps gruff and blunt, but that's fine with me. I accept how I feel about all this because it's insane, and the reaction to it is actually healthy and natural.

[daenerysterfgaryen]

i am the twitter poster. the person who wrote the article is cache_pas, and i am the person in it. my username now is dariastormborn. you can verify all that. @Cowbells i get banned a lot though, and i am on shadow ban right now. :/ and yeah, i'm pretty mean.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great to see you here! Sad that they have shadow banned your Twitter account.

[mollythemeerkat]

Its what "be kind" has come to mean isnt it? Signal what a good person you are - dont rock the boat etc. Sad that reasonably courteous but strong debate has become so difficult - I grew up thinking that was what you did to solve differences of opinion but doesnt work in this climate, so I guess we have to revert to stroppy and refuse to roll over.

[AsTreesWalking]

Oh well done sparklfairy! Thank you. That must have been hard.
Reminds me a bit of my polite, kind, forthright mother who was at a very smart army 'do' with my father in about 1953. A woman there had a very noticeable leak onto her white dress, and as she left some objectionable prick started laughing and pointing it out to everyone around him. My mother (who would have really ticked me off for that language) told him just how disgusting his behaviour was. She was a great role model. Never rude; not acquiesent.

[Sparklfairy]

@AsTreesWalking your mother sounds ace!! I wonder whether a couple of pints had made me braver, but tbh I don't think so. It was probably the most disgusting thing I've ever heard come out of a stranger's mouth. The boyfriend placing all importance on his embarrassment at my expense just showed me who he is.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

The boyfriend placing all importance on his embarrassment at my expense just showed me who he is.

Indeed. It's a vile, menacing thing to say to a woman. Well to anyone, but particularly a man to a woman.

[Packingsoapandwater]

"Simply saying "I don't care", is dismissive and calculated to be hurtful. Gratuitously nasty."

This statement made me angry. Why on earth should women care about other people's feelings? Why shouldn't they be honest and say "I don't care" when they don't?

Women have enough on their plate. As a class, they are overwhelmingly responsible for the caring labour in society: for their children, their elderly relatives, their parents, and often their siblings.

But your comment suggests women's caring parameters should extend even further than this, to care about bloody everything and everyone, even unreasonable strangers.

What exactly do you expect from women? We're not fucking superhuman. We're not embodiments of some mythological Virgin Mary archetype. Why should we always be cautious over expressing what we really think and feel? Tying ourselves up in knots, constantly sacrificing our own state of mind and our own feelings to keep the bloody peace?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Yes, it's particularly rich when it's quite clear nobody gives a single fuck about women's feelings.

[ArabellaScott]

Right. We are allowed not to care. It's not a woman's duty to care for everyone. We are not everyone's mother, just because we are mothers.

'Not caring' is not the same as being hostile. Indifference is not a bad thing. We can be as neutral as Switzerland, this doesn't mean we are evil, nasty or - well, it doesn't mean anything.

Maybe women need to learn more effective shrugging.

[Debbierocket123]

Best advice I ever got was to stop being so nice. You will never please everyone in fact the more you give, the more people expect from you so hold true to your boundaries and stop trying to be nice!