Dear Feminists: Be Meaner

[NonnyMouse1337]

Fantastic article that reflects views I've had for a long time. Always wished women would learn how to be more 'mean' and willing to centre women and women's rights instead of looking out for everyone else. We really won't get far unless this changes. Glad to see someone else articulate this so well.

theblisteringrebuttal.substack.com/p/4183e962-ded5-47f7-b89f-c49b9de6cbb5

How do we teach girls to assert their boundaries? It's hard. Modelling, I suppose. But it feels like fighting the mighty ocean.

The concept of “gender identity” does not subvert, but strengthens male rule. It shows us that the status of women as a class remains fundamentally unchanged. The recognition of women’s boundaries is contingent on men’s definition of what she is in relation to him; the latest iteration of patriarchy being that women are now an identity for men to take on and off as they please.

This is a dangerous game to play, if women are to argue that we are not, by nature, boundaryless. Regaining the sexual integrity stolen from us by centuries of patriarchal rule will take a lot more than pretending that our sex — a boundary in and of itself — does not exist at all.

End of that article from Feminist Current.

The rise of 'gender identity' is not a sideshow to feminism, one strand to think about among many. It's potentially the end of feminism.

Nope, you either misread or misunderstand WhistfulWisteria I don't want men included at all in feminism, I want women and ONLY women and their issues to be discussed, I want women and girls to set and enforce their boundaries and not give a fuck who it upsets nor for them to be encouraged to just be kind or to put themselves second.

Women and girls first, front and centre, no apologies.

I do believe that we can get there Arabella. Modelling is essential…and also constantly helping our daughters (and sons) to see the world through our eyes.

I remember a very awkward conversation with a junior, male analyst who kept making inappropriate remarks about a female colleague (as a senior mentor, I had to intervene). I wish that I had heard a very specific quote I came across on this board.

“If you are uncertain about what you can say to a female colleague, just don’t say anything you wouldn’t be comfortable with hearing from a 6 foot 5 rugby player you were sharing a double cell with in prison”.

I think that one is so good.

The rise of 'gender identity' is not a sideshow to feminism, one strand to think about among many. It's potentially the end of feminism.

Such a weak conclusion to make.

Weak.

But then being afraid of the"mighty" ocean is also weak.

Such timidity.

If you are uncertain about what you can say to a female colleague, just don’t say anything you wouldn’t be comfortable with hearing from a 6 foot 5 rugby player you were sharing a double cell with in prison

That's perfect. Women and girls need to be encouraged to speak up and speak out and we need to remove all this crap and name calling when they do.

How do we teach girls to assert their boundaries? It's hard. Modelling, I suppose. But it feels like fighting the mighty ocean.

Yes. But we have to try.

It is funny isn’t it Arabella? My analyst couldn’t understand why a female colleague would be unconscious with comments about how her skirt was flattering her figure 🙄. I think that this quote would have enabled an instant understanding…

With you weary

Oh, I don't mean I find it hard to model that, Weary. I mean, looking at the relentless messaging from society, the T-shirts with be kind, the TV shows with giggly ponies, the books about fairies and friendship and niceness, the school 'values' that skew towards girls being 'kind' all the time, the fact that people always have and always will comment on and focus on my daughter's clothes/appearance etc. She's only young - I know what's going to face her as she gets older. That's what I mean by the mighty ocean. The world feels steeped in misogyny, even when it's polite and pretty misogyny.

weary, that is so interesting. I guess I am middle class but I am not English.

I teach my girls to be polite but tell them that they do not have to be kind. Kindness is reserved for people who are weaker, old, younger or are having a bad day.

My (English) DH is advocating icy, hostile politeness. I personally think that plain speaking is great and often the best way to deal with any form of sexual harassment. “Excuse me, I think your hand is on my leg”, said loudly… works every time

@WoolOfBat I disagree that I misinterpret this or any other thread on these boards but am not inclined to argue the point.

My larger point still stands: that the mere existence of trans women (not trans men though - they are seen as confused harmless women and just get ignored mostly), whether present in a discussion or not, sucks all the attention and energy away from everything else. It is a ridiculous situation, impossible to resolve, doesn't do this website's reputation any favours at all, but it isn't my problem. Optimistically, I thought the establishment of the "sex and gender" board would mitigate this somewhat, but (evidently) this isn't happening.

Sure@MadBadDaddy but you inserted identity at the first opportunity.

And don't want to participate anonymously, posters have read your biographical posts.
You are not playing by the new conventions.

You are as obligated as the rest of us to accept this is a new place.

whether present in a discussion or not, sucks all the attention and energy away from everything else. It is a ridiculous situation, impossible to resolve, doesn't do this website's reputation any favours at all, but it isn't my problem.

Well unfortunately the wide trans umbrella has created this. Anyone can be a woman now. Just by saying so.
And with this huge attack on women and children's rights and safety as a result of this, then women are going to talk about this and push back. Don't blame women for this. Blame gender ideology.
You have daughters. Does this not concern you?

And it's absolutely not impossible to resolve if people choose to leave their baggage at the door. You have a space to enact what are now exhaustinly predictable performances over the various definitions of gender and get to 1,000 posts doing so if you so desire over there.

We would like to talk here differently. Without the endless repeats.

Too late, we are already on repeat.

We would like to talk here differently. Without the endless repeats.

Who exactly is we? You have the feminist chat to act out your kindness. I'm not interested.

You cannot discuss female boundaries without including all boundaries. There will be parts of all discussions where the two boards intersect.

Can we get back to discussing how girls can stand up for themselves? Less kind, more straight talking? Encourage boys to behave in and express this in language they understand?

What do we think is best? Icy politeness or plain talking?

@Erikrie

We would like to talk here differently. Without the endless repeats.

Who exactly is we? You have the feminist chat to act out your kindness. I'm not interested.

This is feminist chat

@Whistfulwisteria I'm more than happy to respond to literally any other point I've made, but I'm not going to apologise for having an opinion on the disproportionate and occluding influence our existence has on feminist discourse here. I can go elsewhere for actual calm, balanced and informed discussion of my life and issues. I guess I was maybe testing the waters to see if anyone would pick up on anything I said that wasn't related to my identity, but no such luck.