Dear Feminists: Be Meaner

[NonnyMouse1337]

Fantastic article that reflects views I've had for a long time. Always wished women would learn how to be more 'mean' and willing to centre women and women's rights instead of looking out for everyone else. We really won't get far unless this changes. Glad to see someone else articulate this so well.

theblisteringrebuttal.substack.com/p/4183e962-ded5-47f7-b89f-c49b9de6cbb5

[ShoppingWomble]

Thanks for this, what I needed to hear!

I think the bar for what is "mean" moves up or down depending on who's talking to whom:

Man talking honestly to man/ woman - just being honest, saying it like it is
Woman talking honestly to woman - depends on context
Woman talking honestly to man - OMG SO MEAN!! You hurt his feelings! And embarrassed him!

Weird that men are seen as the strong ones but women often have to do so much emotional caretaking/ modify language to get their point over. (Or never will get the point over in the case of talking about male violence.) If only we asked more nicely it would all get sorted...

[MaudTheInvincible]

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

#BeMoreViper

#BeFirm&Fair

Thanks for this. I've had a chat with my 11yo DD this evening about the importance of being fair rather than simply being kind. Sowing seeds.

[Precipice]

There's a quote I've seen going around social media ascribed to Andrea Dworkin, which I think is likely apocryphal, since looking it up, I find mentions only on social media and one organisation site. Nevertheless, I think it is a good message. It is a recommendation for the women of the 21st century: "Harden your hearts and learn to kill."

[NiceGerbil]

Only skimmed but IRL if you stand your ground then men can get very aggressive.

It's a fine balance. (That I always failed because I didn't know how to defer).

[Maudythebudgie]

Great article. I'm in Australia and our politics is currently in a dire state with misogynistic politicians running the show. Fuck being kind... I'm angry.

[tinselvestsparklepants]

I practice fierce kindness. The fierce but refers to not being a doormat, sometimes practising tough love, sometimes protecting someone vulnerable and sometimes putting myself first.
(I think there's a good kids' book in that - any illustrators on here?)

[Whatthechicken]

My kids are still very young (5&6) but during homeschooling so many of the recorded lessons and stories that were read had the ‘be kind’ message, so many! I always stopped the lesson at that point and explained that you don’t have to be kind to everyone, not everyone will deserve their kindness. If anyone makes them feel uncomfortable saying ‘no’ or ‘go away’ is perfectly acceptable. Be kind, feels like such a massive safe guarding fail.

[lazylinguist]

I've always worried that maybe I haven't brought my dc up to be kind enough, but I'm now feeling kind of glad. They are not rude, but they stand up for their opinions and tbh they don't suffer fools gladly! And I'd say that was more true of dd than ds.

The 2 dc and I were having a chat last night about sexual harassment, assault etc and the recent revelations about girls' experiences if this in schools. I realised that dd's slightly bolshy attitude and unapologetic certainty about her equality and rights will probably make her much better at calling out inappropriate male comments or behaviour than I ever would have been at her age, and less likely to get into relationships with boys/men who don't treat her respectfully. Obviously that won't necessarily protect her from violence or harassment, but it's better than nothing.

[Wbeezer]

I keep thinking back to an incident when i was a child and a male neighbour tried to coerce me into doing something very inappropriate, i was a stubborn child and just refused to cooperate because I felt it was dodgy without knowing exactly why, the more he pestered the more resistant i felt. He was framing things very much in a help me out, be nice kind of way, thank goodness i felt able to say no, my little sister was there too and he never tried it on with either of us again.

[ChattyLion]

Wbeezer

[Wbeezer]

Thanks @ChattyLion I'm not traumatised by it precisely because i managed to stop anything happening, i protected by myself by listening to my instincts and remained in control and that is a powerful thing for a child. I do have a very clear memory of it though. Luckily the horrible neighbour emigrated so i didnt have to deal with him.

[ArabellaScott]

@Whatthechicken

My kids are still very young (5&6) but during homeschooling so many of the recorded lessons and stories that were read had the ‘be kind’ message, so many! I always stopped the lesson at that point and explained that you don’t have to be kind to everyone, not everyone will deserve their kindness. If anyone makes them feel uncomfortable saying ‘no’ or ‘go away’ is perfectly acceptable. Be kind, feels like such a massive safe guarding fail.

I've had to do this too. The school is absolutely rabid about 'be kind', it's banged on about in every single assembly (to the point where the kids just roll their eyes when I mention assembly and say 'it's just them going on about being kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind).

It's all shown up to be bullshit when they still don't really deal with bullies effectively. It's only some kids that are being exhorted to be kind, really, and it's not the ones thumping the others.

[StrictlyAFemaleFemale]

@Weirdfan

I wonder who the rad fem on Twitter is?

I think its Dr Em.

[StrictlyAFemaleFemale]

Oh and no matter how kind your dc are, german kids will always be kinder.


I'll get me coat...

[NonnyMouse1337]

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Oh and no matter how kind your dc are, german kids will always be kinder.

I'll get me coat...

Oh dear....

[daenerysterfgaryen]

@ArabellaScott @Weirdfan @StrictlyAFemaleFemale Hi. I am the person talked about in the article. Someone told me about this thread, I wrote a post explaining my philosophy, and it got deleted by Mumsnet...which is kind of ironic, but I thought yall should know. You cannot be mean on this website, which appears to be very invested in neutral respectability politics. This is me being quite polite, but I find it odd that a site for mothers is treating those who believe biological sex is not real as though they have a respectable and reasonable opinion? If biological sex isn't real, your site wouldn't exist, and the name isn't very trans inclusive anyway, cuz BiRtHiNg BoDiEs CaN bE DaDs too! yawn. Mumsnet should not be pandering to these absolute misogynists, their site is supposed to actually be for women.

[Furx]

@NonnyMouse1337

German sausages are the Wurst tho.

[NonnyMouse1337]

[quote Furx]@NonnyMouse1337

German sausages are the Wurst tho.[/quote]
Ok I'm stealing that one.

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Oh and no matter how kind your dc are, german kids will always be kinder.

I'll get me coat...

LOL.

Seriously, 'be kind' sends my blood pressure up. It's basically saying, be a doormat. I wonder if it plays on female hormones, because post-menopause I have become bolshier, arsier and generally less generically kind than I used to be. Or maybe it's just that the menopause reminds you that don't have time to waste, so you stop wasting it on 'being kind' to people who really don't deserve it.

[ArabellaScott]

Hi, daenerysterfgaryen.

Sorry about your post.

Yes, one has to be very careful about the rules to remain on this board and able to talk. It is a strange situation, but many of us feel it is worth staying as it is a great board to discuss the issues and has many very informed, intelligent and insightful posters. And is read by a great number of people.

[ArabellaScott]

it is a great board to discuss the issues and has many very informed, intelligent and insightful posters

I mean, even despite the shit puns.

[JustGotHere]

I thagree mostly, but I dont think meanness is required. I think she’s describing the stigma around women’s anger, and how it is often read as attacking when we express it. It took me two years of therapy to accept that I even experienced anger, and when I did I quickly realized it was the defining emotion in my life.

My whole life, I’d been conditioned to think that anger was bad, selfish, even hateful. And of course I didn’t want to be any of those things, and so I swallowed my anger until I couldn’t even recognize it. I see this in the movement when women are accused of hate and hate speech and being selfish (exclusionary). To me, when that happens they are being punished for their anger. Anger is good, healthy, and often justified. It is not hate or persecution. And we have a right to it. Calling it meanness just reinforces the stigma. I think it would be better to embrace and nourish our anger, and be fearless in expressing it.

[MoltenLasagne]

I remember watching the late, great Magdalen Berns and the sense of liberation I felt when she said "I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar".

It made me realise how much I was conceding ground trying to be nice, when actually I was being asked to give up everything I believed in.

[NonnyMouse1337]

Yes! There are much worse things one can be in life, yet women being 'mean' is viewed with more stigma.