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To think this was unbelievably cruel and evil?

180 replies

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 17/05/2018 09:50

having flashbacks, again. So panicked. So stupid it was 7 years ago.
How can they do this to me but they are ok, they get to have good lives!
I was suicidal and struggling, undiagnosed autism. Id been very supportive to a friend. The whole group cut me out, with no warning. they stood in the way so I couodnt have dinner with them, and called the police to take me away. i trusted them. it keeps going through ym head

How could they be so evil? One of them used to always get horribly pissed and disrupt parties and be violent to people, and she never got exlcuded. why did I? how could they? WHy do they get to be happy but i struggle so much, cos im so worthless and terrified of everyone cos i cant trust anyone, im so scared

OP posts:
PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 20/05/2018 23:37

Bloody hell - so even me helping someone is something to criticise? I was being "grandiose"? Fuck that. I was 24, knew I was utterly out of my depth, but even in hindsight I think I did the right thing! And it takes time for people to fly places and stuff - took a few days for his partner to get there. I'm intrigued though that you find it acceptable for other friends to drop everything and get him...?

Why are you asking about mental health services when I've made it clear several times on the thread I'm in touch with them and have been since the incident in the OP? Are your responses all based on the erroneous assumption I wasn't trying my best to get professional help? Do you realise the crisis team et al encourage you to look forward to things and ask if you can go and see a friend if you phone them? It's really confusing having all these mixed messages about what to do.

OP posts:
PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 21/05/2018 00:15

And I don't expect people to help, not anymore. I reserve the right to think it's shitty behaviour though, and that the world would be a better place if people did support each other more.

I generally don't tell anyone when it's really bad anymore, hence posting on here when I was having a horrible memories/panic/anxiety thingummy. (I do tell the crisis team, as a matter of getting it on record, but they don't/can't do much.) Most of the time I'm just muddling through, trying to be positive and do positive things, having a good weep when I need one, I get very low and weepy a lot but try to push through. The memories, nightmares etc tend to come in spates are are something else entirely.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 21/05/2018 00:15

You are using the incident with the suicidal friend to bolster your argument that your friends fell short of what normal people should do. You are comparing what you did for your friend with what they did for you. Your friends are falling short of your very rigid expectations.

I assumed family or friends capable of offering help in the form of getting the suicidal friend home to medical help would drop everything and do that, yes. Family and friends who could only offer help in the form of just holding a hand would probably not do that because it would not be the help the friend needed. Family and friends who knew there was a partner available to get to the suicidal person and take them home would not step in over that partner and take over. A partner is more than either family or just 'friends'. There is a hierarchy of assistance (not in the way you mentioned earlier). The person closest to the suicidal person is the one to step in. This is because that person probably knows the suicidal person best and might be listened to best, cares the most, feels the most responsible, and has the most to lose if everything goes horribly wrong. Your friends in your situation were just friends, not family and not a partner.

The crisis team don't want you phoning friends or even family so much, and relying on them for coping the way you describe. They don't want you or your friendship group (or even family) getting to the point where the friends (family) can't see any other course open to them but to perhaps stage an intervention, or perhaps decide they have to stop contact (or in the case of family, leave you or ask you to leave). They don't want you to use a group of friends (or your family) to 'cope' instead of turning to MH services and engaging with them, taking medication, engaging with therapy, or whatever else is offered.

There is a difference between looking forward to things to dissipate the occasional low mood and living a life that you call 'coping', using the friends to keep you from the abyss.

If you had reached the point where not being taken in by the friends that evening resulted in you collapsing on their doorstep and the police seeing that taking you away from the scene was warranted, then maybe you were heading downhill for a while before then? Maybe the friends sensed that you had gone beyond the point where they could offer meaningful help?

Are the MH services you have been in contact with aware that you were taken away by the police, that you had collapsed on the doorstep, that you had been relying on friends to the extent that their non-availability on that occasion had that extreme effect on you?

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 21/05/2018 09:10

Yes of course the services are aware. The police took me stright to them for assessment. And I'd been in touch with them for about a year at that stage.

Ive been thinking for the past year about whether to kill nsyelf this summer. I dont belong in this world, i beling in one where things make sense and people are kind. Im not good enough in this one and havent been able to get the help i need.

OP posts:
PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 21/05/2018 09:11

and can you all please stop telling people on these boards to turn to friends, if it is so wrong. Its so horrible being told thats the right thing to do ( and services DO do that, whatever you believe) and then thats wrong too. Just be hinest with peopel -its wrong, you musnt need love or support from anyone except cold impersonal services, and better to kill yourself, and yes you are a burden

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 21/05/2018 09:15

What people mean is to confide in friends if you're feeling depressed etc. they don't mean to lean on them so heavily they can't cope or rely on them for your mental wellbeing. People are kind. But they have their own lives and pressures and can't take all your issues on whenever you want.
If you feel suicidal it's professional help you need.

MadMags · 21/05/2018 09:28

@PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop of course you should confide in friends. You really should.

If you were leaning on this group of friends a lot, even without realising it, then they decided they’d had enough.

But that doesn’t mean you’re not meant for this world. The world is filled with compassionate people.

Unfortunately either their compassion ran out, or it wasn’t 100% there to begin with. Some people see anything more than superficial friendship as too much to bear, and that’s ok. They’re entitled to think that, just as much as you’re entitled to think real friendship is so much more.

If you weren’t here, who knows what would have happened to your friend? He was lucky to have someone strong enough to shoulder that burden. You were unlucky enough to have people who for whatever reason, couldn’t do the same.

And don’t underestimate the power of mob mentality! I’m sure they were able to firm their resolve to cut you out but telling each other it was the right thing to do.

You must have been in a very worrying state for them to have the police come and take you to a hospital. Even if you don’t think you were, you must have been.

You don’t think you would have been like that if you’d been invited to dinner, but they don’t know that! So your crisis was likely a confirmation (to them) that they’d done the right thing.

It’s a really unfortunate circumstance, but it doesn’t mean nobody will ever care about you and what you’re going through.

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 21/05/2018 09:58

Im so sorry, Im just so confused.

Madmags - people do care about me now, but I thought what people are saying is that its wrong to get comfort from that?

Im really confused. I thought I was getting better, I've been gradually able to do more over the past few years and the memories and panicky terror times are less.

Look as an example or my confusion I'll explain one incident - I feel horrible sick and guilty and frightened if I tell anyone how I feel (didn't used to). Anyway a dear friend messaged after we'd talked once and said something like "I know you'll feel bad about this later, so i'm going to pre-empt all that and say: It's fine." That message made me cry for a long time, but not in a bad way exactly. The acceptance felt incredibly profound and healing in a way I cant articulate. Knowing people care and/or just having connections with people, really helps. Also I dont know how to explain it exactly, but it could be summed up as "knowing I could call someone makes it much less likely I need to"... does that make sense? It's as if all the little bits of love and care sort of add up inside me and are there to call on... all sort of subconsciously and this is the first time I've tried to write it down.

But it's confusing if that is actually wrong... I thought I was healing from trauma and thus going through the gradually being able to trust people thingummy, learning the wold isnt totally a terrifying, unpredictable place. But people here seem to think I've framed it all wrong, and I don't want to get it wrong and do something wrong by mistake. I feel now like I am suppsoed to cut off and not draw strength from knowing people care, like I dont really deserve it after all.

im so sorry if i've got anything wrong, im just in a lot of pain and trying to understand and i dont want to do something wrong

OP posts:
MadMags · 21/05/2018 10:27

I just want to give you a massive hug (which is really unlike me on here Wink)

No, it’s not wrong. Not at all! And the fact that your friend sent you that message shows just how cared about you are!

You are doing nothing wrong by texting/chatting to the people in your life now. Nothing! And you should 100%?continue to do so.

You can even do that on here! Just “anyone want to chat? Feeling sad/lonely/panicky today”. I can guarantee more than one person will know exactly how you feel.

Get your comfort from whoever you have in your life now! Absolutely do!

I’m only saying (and I can’t know for sure, only suspect) that at that particular time, with that particular group of people, it became too much. They acted badly, too! They could have backed off a tiny bit. They could have said “I’m here for you but I’m going through something right now so I’ll call you in a couple of weeks.” There was fault on your side AND theirs.

The reason you still get panicky about it is because you’re not well so it’s become bigger to you than it was to them.

I really think if you look at it and go “they didn’t get me. They didn’t get what I needed. It was too much for them and they handled it badly” you’ll be able to let go of it more.

I don’t think it was because they were evil, or they despised you and thought of you as less than human, I think it’s because they handled a tough situation badly. And we’ve all done that!

So now you have friends whom you’ve helped, and who have helped you. THOSE are your people! And if you ever feel like you need to just know that someone is there if you need it then tell them!

If a friend texted me and said “look, I’m in a bad way and I need something to look forward to to just help me get through it, are you free for coffee at X” I would 100% make myself available and I know most people would, too.

But if I didn’t know that’s what she was after and I started feeling like she was being irrational and showing up at my door hysterical, it would genuinely scare me and I would act in a way I thought was appropriate ie; getting professional help.

Does that make sense?

Bottom line: I know it’s easy to say just forget about it. Perhaps you don’t have to forget about it but I think if you try and see it from their point of view (even though you know they were wrong) you can say ok, it hurt me, they let me down, but I understand why and I’m not happy about it, but it’s done now and I can let it go. Flowers

chavtasticfirebanger · 21/05/2018 10:52

Op the national autistic society run courses for autistic women. Do you think having friends with similar difficulties would help?

PorlockHeaven · 21/05/2018 13:10

How about getting to the root cause of your mental illness. What is the traumatic event that started it all, do you think?

mathanxiety · 21/05/2018 16:45

The problem is drawing all of your strength from people who care and having no other source or inner resources.

It's fine to take comfort and to like the feeling that people care. It's absolutely great to be at a place where just knowing there is someone you can call makes you feel good.

But there are lines that got crossed with the former group, as far as I can see. You got to the point where you were depending on the availability of this group for all of your emotional sustenance and the maintenance of your equilibrium.

Has anyone ever assessed you for BPD? Someone mentioned it upthread (maybe more than one person).

chavtasticfirebanger · 22/05/2018 22:05

Are you ok OP?

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 24/05/2018 08:42

Porlock I know exactly what caused it. Started to write it out but too depressing! But I have always been solution-focused, always tried to work out what was wrong, which is what makes it so frustrating that I couldn't get the therapy I needed, plus then undiagnosed ASD which was a missing piece of the puzzle...

OP posts:
PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 28/05/2018 09:48

I think I need some help, but can't get any. Or maybe Im right that it just can't get better, it's too late now. I've told the crisis team many times my suicide date, they just do not give a fuck. I've explained I set a date to give things a chance to get better but they have no interest in helping thigns get better. I do t know how to ask for help and actually get it. I dont think they can do anything. I've got a couple of months left but ready to give up now, I cant bear the pain and the nightmares and the hopelessness and being so unwanted and worthless to the world

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 28/05/2018 15:44

You haven't got a couple of months left. Each day is a chance to make it a bit better. Counselling, medication, exercise, loads of things can help. Go back to your GP or try and really engage with the crisis team.

tierraJ · 28/05/2018 18:53

Hi OP I used to say I would kill myself by X age or year if certain things didn't happen in my life & I really meant it.

But now all the meds are working & im happy so despite things not happening the way I wanted I'm still here luckily!!

I realise now how poorly I was.

The thing about suicide is that you will never know what could've happened if you'd given yourself more time.... death is very absolutely final & I believe that we have no awareness after death and there is no afterlife.

I also know how shit Crisis Teams can be but speak to someone else in RL about how you feel, someone who could advocate for you with the crisis team.

MadMags · 28/05/2018 19:12

Can you go back to your GP? Write down how you feel if it helps and give him/her the letter. Maybe there are meds that can help until you find someone who you can really engage with?

YouAreNotImportant · 28/05/2018 19:16

There was a poster called elementofsurprise - her old threads might be helpful for you Flowers

mathanxiety · 28/05/2018 21:09

...asked me what I thought would be helpful for them to do. And pointed out there might be some therapy in the pipeline. I don't know the answer to their question, what should I say?

There is not a single answer to that (in the sense of a right answer). The answer is whatever you want it to be.
If you would like to be hospitalised, you can ask for that.
If you would like to be assessed with a view to being prescribed ADs or anti-anxiety medication, you can ask for that.

You can ask for trauma-specific services - services (a referral) that can help you deal with past trauma.

If you talk of suicide some time in the future to a crisis team they will take that on board but not appear to engage seriously with you on that score because sometimes serious engagement with suicide talk can have the effect of causing a person to fixate more seriously on it, and a spiral develops. The bottom line intention of a crisis team is to prevent immediate harm to an individual, and to avoid future harm (creating the focus spiral). They ask you what you want in order to get you to focus on some way out of the crisis that doesn't involve suicide.

They really do take your talk of suicide seriously. They do not want you to do that. They just can't give you a hug, a hand hold, a personal shoulder to cry on. They can't deliver care in the form that you want right there on the spot.

That question is asked because a crisis team is trying to get you to see yourself as a person with cognitive abilities, able to identify and articulate your own desires. They are also seeing you as a person with worth and dignity who is a partner with mental health service providers in finding the path to your best life. They are also asking because they know that it is difficult to engage a person with mental health provision if that person has had their participation dictated to them.

At present there is obviously a chasm.
You need help but it is hard for you to see what might actually benefit you. (Plus there is the matter of delayed appointments and long waiting lists). They are operating with the hope of beginning as they hope to proceed - with you working on actively discerning and choosing what you need from the mental health services that are available, engaging with what is offered, and ultimately becoming your own best advocate. Ultimately, the aim is that you will be independent of MH services, with a clear idea of what is going wrong if you experience a setback.

This will take a good deal of engagement and work on your part too, and willingness to explore the trauma in your life. You can't fix what happened in the past. You can't make it go away entirely. It will always be there just as happy times will always be there. But if it is affecting you now, you have to go back to it, expose it, explore it, maybe find a way of reducing it to a manageable size. You can't take 'today, here, now' as your starting point and leave the trauma fully intact in the place called 'the past'. The past is not a cage. The trauma is still with you today. You have to build a cage around it, or somehow reduce it to a very small size, with the help of a therapist. It can be incorporated into your self and into your perception of your life in a way that does not hobble you as you move on.

This is just a few stabs in the dark and possibly not relevant -

  • if the trauma was sexual you could approach a Rape Crisis Centre and ask for some support from them.
  • if related to domestic violence, approach Women's Aid and ask for support there.
  • if related to abuse or neglect as a child take a look at this:
www.supportline.org.uk/problems/child_abuse_survivors.php There is a long list here of agencies offering support. (This ^^ link might actually be helpful no matter what your trauma was.)

Could you go to your GP and ask for a referral to therapy for the trauma that occurred that is beneath all of this, and ask for medication while on the waiting list so that you can cope better with the nightmares and flashbacks?

You seem so careful about 'doing the right thing' and avoiding 'doing the wrong thing' and so ashamed and down on yourself for 'getting things wrong' - I want to reach out and give you a hug for that.

Please remember that no matter what it was that has affected you, you have had the strength to get through to this point, and maybe seeing yourself as a survivor and not as a victim could help you to keep on putting one foot in front of the other.

I think tierraJ's suggestion of an advocate for you in dealing with crisis teams is an excellent one. Do you think there is any individual you could reach out to who would be willing to hear your story and go to bat for you? Maybe a clergyperson could fill that role - they might not mind being approached by someone who was basically a stranger.

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 01/06/2018 12:12

Thanks for your long thoughtful post math, sorry its taken so long to reply.

I don't know what to say to the crisis team when they ask what I want them to do. I don't know what the actual available options are, for a start. And if I call them it's because I've exhausted all other options and am no longer able to think of something to help, it just seems like another expectation I can't meet. Although when things were happening when I was younger I could have done with being hospitalised for a bit, that wouldn't help now (and I'd never get admitted anyway). TBH I don't think they can do anything, not now. I only call because I'm aware that's what I'm supposed to do.

Thanks for explaining the suicide thing from their POV... but it seems like a weird paradox. Because if I've definitely made up my mind to kill myself, I'm not going to call them then, am I? As it is, I rarely call them because it's just so difficult. There doesn't seem to be any way of sort of pre-empting it, of making things better so that I don't feel/think it's a good idea any more. Their model of suicide only captures the "sudden crisis" type, where something provokes suicidal feelings and there's a narrow window of opportunity to intervene. It doesn't capture the gritting-your-teeth-and-trying-to-go-on-everyday-and-eventually-drowning-in-it type. (Gosh, after typing that I think I've realised why I get so many nightmares about impending disaster that I'm trying to prevent but no-one will help).

There aren't any trauma services in my area... as it is it's only the ASD diagnosis that has meant I might be able to access therapy, most people can only access the IAPT services (who don't accept you if it's considered "too complex").

They are operating with the hope of beginning as they hope to proceed

Let's just be clear here - I asked them for help almost eight years ago (this time around - also tried when younger). I had a CPN briefly who got involved in sorting out benefits, then left without explanation. Told to keep waiting as was on list for therapy. 18 months (ish) later - find out no longer on waiting list. Have tried periodically ever since to get back on it, but service has changed/been cut (?). Everything has to go through CMHT, who have assessed me several times and decided no therapy each time, unwilling to explain why in a way that actually makes sense, lots of buck-passing, excuse-making, can never get to the bottom of things. GP has kept re-referring me to them even though they always write back saying please don't refer her again, we can't do anything. Their antics make me feel sick and hopeless. The utter powerlessness of it, it feels like an abusive relatioship where I'm hanging on because I need something only they can provide, but it's destroying me. That is really bizarre, because this dynamic in any other situation and I'd have LTB! Can never find out anything or do anything about it, because everyone just says "go and see your GP". No-one seems to be able to comprehend the concept of the CMHT rejecting the GPs referral. I have spoken to people at the PALS, and they seem to get it, until they "make some calls to find out what's going on" and then get back to me, and, as if hypnotised, parrot "Go and see your GP..." Even contacted MPs office at one point, they seemed very helpful, until I received a letter from them a few days later telling me to make an appointment with my GP who would refer me to the CMHT... Hmm (btw I have gone to see my GP and get referred every time.)

A couple of people have attempted to advocate for me, but they are immediately steamrolled, unused to the workings and diversion tactics of MH services. One friend attended an appointment with me and came away in shock at the manipulation. Another called them, concerned about me, and they said not to worry they'd get my care-coordinator to call. Except I didn't/don't have a care-coordinator...

So, whilst I am open and honest with them, and have taken each new appointment as a fresh start, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical and not seeing them as my saviours. They are definitely not "starting" as they mean to go on - hopefully they are finally realising they've made a mistake and going to do something though.

...with you working on actively discerning and choosing what you need from the mental health services that are available, engaging with what is offered, and ultimately becoming your own best advocate.

The mental health services available so far have been... nothing. I have "engaged" with appointments, assessments etc, and had my hopes dashed many times. This is what's so weird about all this, that people dont seem to understand - I've done bloody well at figuring things out, working out what helps and what doesn't, trying to do as much positive stuff as possible, and frankly just remaining alive this long. I've not been in a downward-spiral of self-destruction or anything (apart from a brief period aged 17). I knew the past was affecting me and went to services explicity to try to get therapy to deal with it. But I haven't been able to, so whilst in many ways I am a hell of a lot "better" than I was 8 years ago, in anther way I am quietly falling apart, losing any scrap of hope, and closer to suicide than ever. It feels much more ... rational. Not a sudden reaction to something happening, but a quiet "can't do this anymore". Too much time passed, too much pain acquired, too many opportunities lost.

Sorry to be depressing, it's just this aspect is one of the hardest things about it all. The way everyone seems to have a narrative about how things should work, and can't/won't countenance anything else. So eg. most of the world says "MH services that way" but MH services shut the door in your face. Or people who do know about services are like "this is what you should do" because that's their experience, but it doesn't match yours. The worst thing about this is that small scraps of support that would help are witheld unless you fit the supporter's internal idea of what is happening (MH professionals and ordinary people). I think that's why I'm so petrified of getting anything "wrong" - because people, especially MH professionals, seem to be searching for something they can say "oh well you should be doing/thinking xyz" so they don't have to engage. Obviously this is impossible when their advice contradicts itself or fails to take reality into account.

Re. trauma - there's not a specific thing. There sort of was, but not something that would be considered traumatic enough for an official diagnosis of PTSD. But it's the way that had an effect on me, that led to more situations that I couldn't handle, and have trauma symptms from, but again nothing on it's own counts as "trauma". It's the comunded effect it's had on my life - a ghastly example of one thing leading to another without timely intervention and never the right environment for long enough to heal. There's sort of two strands... one, getting horrible memories and stuff, and the other is just being exhausted from swimming agaonst the tide trying to keep going, to make progress but too little too late, and grief for all that is lost, and hopelessness for all that will not happen.

Sorry.

OP posts:
PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 17/06/2018 10:37

Is anybody there? It's been a month waiting for a reply.

Why do people make out it's all my fault then disappear when I explain what's really going on?

Ive heard from the mental health services - surprise surprise they are refusing me therapy, again.

I want to give up, there's no way to stop the pain.

OP posts:
BlancheM · 17/06/2018 11:07

Hi, I'm really sorry I don't have any insight or answers but I just wanted to say that I hear you. So many people throw around 'get help, see your GP' with good intentions, with no idea that there isn't really any help available. Our MH services aren't fit for purpose and I wish that could be more widely acknowledged instead of pointing the finger back at the person who desperately needs it as if it's their fault.
You speak so eloquently. I'm sorry about what you're going through Thanks

PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop · 18/06/2018 16:29

Thanks Blanche.
It's just so hard because people seem to have such a fixed idea of what's going on (and contradictory ideas!) and it gets exhausting trying to explain, and I wish I lived in the version of reality that they inhabit.

OP posts:
WitchesGlove · 19/06/2018 13:35

Could you now try and get support from the friend that you are still in touch with?

Would she have helped if you had turned up on her doorstep instead?

I know it’s hard but try and move on from the friends that cut you out. And take comfort in the real friends, like the one that stood by you.

I can’t answer why they didn’t cut out the one that is a violent drunk or the one that sold drugs, but maybe they were useful in some way to them. Maybe they were massive arselickers. Maybe the rest of the group aren’t real friends (to anyone), but just users.

On Mumsnet, there are loads of threads about users/ cheeky fuckers, see for yourself. There are also loads about being excluded by friends (or from weddings!) it’s not that uncommon, I promise you.

Try and do what you can to move on from this and not agonise about the rejection.