To think this was unbelievably cruel and evil?

[PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop]

having flashbacks, again. So panicked. So stupid it was 7 years ago.
How can they do this to me but they are ok, they get to have good lives!
I was suicidal and struggling, undiagnosed autism. Id been very supportive to a friend. The whole group cut me out, with no warning. they stood in the way so I couodnt have dinner with them, and called the police to take me away. i trusted them. it keeps going through ym head

How could they be so evil? One of them used to always get horribly pissed and disrupt parties and be violent to people, and she never got exlcuded. why did I? how could they? WHy do they get to be happy but i struggle so much, cos im so worthless and terrified of everyone cos i cant trust anyone, im so scared

@PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop

Have you posted on here before about this group of friends?

The thing is; their perspective is going to be very, very different to yours.

So, to you they were cruel and evil and didn’t help when you needed them most.

It’s highly likely that they couldn’t cope with the amount of support you needed and distances themselves (you say they planned this beforehand?)

And it sounds like they were genuinely scared the night you showed up. Were you sectioned that day?

Thats very kind stripper but no, thats not what happened. I generally just wanted to be around people when I felt so bad, not particularly talk about it.

Two friends randomly going out for coffee without me wouldn't be the end of the world (it might be upsetting if the three of us regularly had coffee and then suddenly I wasn't invited, although would depend on the context).

They didn't tell me they didnt want me in their lives - it was coincidental, really, that I was feeling so bad at that time, I could have just as easily knocked when managing ok. They had already sat down together and decided to cut me out, blank texts, etc, without telling me - as I mentioned, another friend who I'm still in contact with was witness to this (she was appalled and tried to stand up for me, but obvs that was really hard for her as I strongly suspect she is on the spectrum too). So I was there, feeling awful, thinking oh lets arrange something fun for this evening to look forward to, but no replies. By the evening I was feeling worse, not because of lack of replies, but because I didnt have any fun company to look forward to, which I used to cope. But as mentioned was totally normal for us at the time to knock on each other's doors randomly, so I did.

madmags I didn't do anything to be scared of! I was just a human in distress, needing some kindness and company.

I guess a lot of people are scared of humans in distress through... hmm ...

I didn't do anything to be scared of! I was just a human in distress, needing some kindness and company.

It’s not that I’m defending them, it’s just that there’s a very, very strong possibility that their perspective on it is different to yours.

So you think you were behaving one way, but outwardly, to them, you might have been acting in a way that caused them concern.

Why else would they call the police? Why else would you be taken to, and kept it, hospital?

"They had already sat down together and decided to cut me out, blank texts, etc, without telling me"

Without telling you is horrible. I would imagine in their story they did that because "they didn't know how you would react". People often use that line. And if they weren't honest enough to tell you then they're not worth it.

And thank you, I try to be kind!!!

I do think distress is scary to people sometimes. Especially if distress turns up at the doorstep unannounced. As I say, been there. I am sorry that this happened to you.

Keep talking about it until it feels better.

The way some people express distress can be alarming and scary.
Getting a bit upset and leaving is understandable.
Having to have the entrance to the house barred to you, collapsing in terror and having to have the police called is not a normal response.
You need to seek treatment. Everything seems heightened. You mention nightmares and trauma when really it's friends deciding they can't support you anymore (which they are entitled to do.)

What do you expect someone to do, when they are gritting their teeth and getting on every day and sometimes the memories and anxiety is too much? When it helpes to just have a cuppa with a friend or something. I didnt need much. Just a wee bit of kindness and the terror subsides a bit so i can cope alone again. I dont think thats too much and i did and do do that for others

You were leaning on them far too much. It really is too much to ask of people who have their own worries to deal with and limited time, but most importantly, no expertise at all.

Here is how it can work...
Quite often friends start off assuming another friend's issues can be helped by a shoulder to cry on and a cuppa, and they are willing to offer this, or some fun plans can be made though they don't realise how important the plans are to the maintenance of your equilibrium. To them it is basically friends making plans. Then keeping company with you progresses to hearing the same problems and issues for about the twentieth time, and it becomes clear that the cuppa and hand holding and fun are not enough and you need more help than they are able to offer, so they start to give advice - they say things like 'Go to the GP' or 'Get help working on your boundaries' or 'Here is the MIND UK website' or 'Call the Samaritans'. This advice comes from the heart. It is not cruel and it is not putting you at arms length. It comes from concern that they can't help you but recognition that you need help. When this is ignored they very understandably begin to feel that continued offering of a crutch is preventing you from seeking help that might actually make a difference. People reach a point of emotional exhaustion when they are placed unwittingly or unwillingly into the role of dealing with the sort of trauma and anxiety you describe.

Sometimes a group of friends or family in a situation like this hold an intervention with someone who clearly needs to get help from a qualified source. Or they may decide they need to step back and perhaps, best case scenario, their distressed friend will take their advice about getting appropriate help.

You say you can feel pain that others are experiencing, but this is not really true if you can't put yourself in the shoes of your friends. What you mean when you say you can feel the pain of others and reach out to them is that you can project.

It sounds to me as if you are in denial about the issue you have, and are using this incident to bolster that denial - to assert the narrative that you are suffering from a level of stress that is manageable if only other people would play the role they are supposed to - when you actually need appropriate qualified help.

I think the only cruel person here is the one whom you are still in touch with, who covered her own arse and went tattling to you about the decision of the rest of the friends. This decision may or may not have been accurately reported by the friend.

You need to go to your GP and engage with medical help that is available. You can ask for therapy that includes work on personal boundaries.

I hope you are having a better day. Please remember there are far more good people in this world than selfish nasty ones.

@PleaseMakeTheNightmaresStop

Morning, how are you feeling today?

MadMags Why else would they call the police? Why else would you be taken to, and kept it, hospital?

I was considered a suicide risk. I was already "on the books" as I'd been trying to get help for some time. (I wasn't sectioned but told I would probably be if I refused to go "voluntarily"). I presume thay'd have called a mental health response team if one existed - but it doesn't, the police have to do that bit. The police were very kind.

Wolfie As I've mentioned several times, I was already in a really bad way. I was trying to do a sensible thing and cope by getting a bit of support in the form of a natter (about normal stuff) with friends, rather than harm myself. For context, anyone in the wider social network (not just this group) who had happened to knock at that time would have been welcomed in - that's how it was amongst us all then (20s, no children, about a third of us unemployed at any given time). So if, for eg. my friend's parents were visitng and over for dinner it would have been different - not normal to invite me in.

But it was being in a hanging-on-by-fingernails state, then the relief when my friend answered the door, then shock and sickness and confusion as the others barred the way into the living room and looked at me with those cold eyes that I now recognise as the moment when you know anything could happen because they no longer see you as human, any pain you are in is irrelevent, it's terrifying.

Maths

I was ALREADY trying to get help from services. I was on some really long waiting list for therapy (that later got cut). I live in an area with some of the most appalling services in the country - high need and no money. (I've been trying to get NHS therapy for years now, and had some privately when I could afford it. It's only the ASD diagnosis that's changed things so I'm on a list again...) They knew this. I didn't want them to make it better, just some support.

You say you can feel pain that others are experiencing, but this is not really true if you can't put yourself in the shoes of your friends. What you mean when you say you can feel the pain of others and reach out to them is that you can project.

I treat people much more kindly than they do, whatever your explanation for it is. Other people help each other according to some weird social hierachy - hence the one who'd get drunk and hit people being welcome whilst I was not. And later, someone who refused to get MH help, refused to claim benefits so sofa-surfed and got food off (very poor) others, made money now and then by selling drugs, and eventually ended up having to be rescued form abroad after a fundraiser.... (Yeh, I helped too, cos I think people should, but if they were going to pick and choose it seems odd, iyswim). I help people when they are in pain. It's beggars belief that you think the person in huge overwhelming pain in that situation should be the one who's putting others feelings first, whilst letting off the ones who are fine and chose to be cruel. It's like getting annoyed at a starving person for wanting some of your after-dinner cheese and biscuits - surely it should be needs-based? When others are in huge pain, I don't expect them to put my feelings first. I admit I am weird in this area but don't think in a bad way..? So right now, for eg. I feel shit but am kinda coping. So if someone knocked on my door in more pain, my own would actually subside/be pushed to the background and I could and would help them. (This has been commented on before, couple of times a weird emergency has happened when I've been in a bad way, and a calm clear head has taken over, I wish I could tap into this normally.)

I think the only cruel person here is the one whom you are still in touch with, who covered her own arse and went tattling to you about the decision of the rest of the friends. This decision may or may not have been accurately reported by the friend.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks truth doesn't matter and so-called "tattling" is terrible? Tattling is making stuff up, not telling the truth instead of covering for unpleasant behaviour. How dare you speak about her like that? She is one of the sweetest, gentlest people I know (and others would agree). I'd actually introduced her to these friends a couple of weeks before cos I thought they'd get on. We don't see each other much now as she lives away, but she explained what happened a long time after the event, and said this (and some other stuff) about how I was treated was one reason she decided not to move back here (amongst more general comments about how some people get away with murder whilst others are hauled over the coals for little. Neither of us understand or buy into this weird social hierachy).

I dont understand this refual to believe how crap servicea are. These are people who are fairly interested in politics, read stuff in the papers about cuts to services etc but somehow don't expect it to show in real life. Even on this thread, some posters don't seem to grasp that you can't make them help you (and there's the whole weird thing where if you need a lot of help they decide it's above their funding limit, and won't half-treat you, so nothing).

And I get so sickeningly confused about what I'm supposed to think, like everyone's telling me something different. I feel quietly and logically suicidal, and I've told services, feel like I'm weighing it up every day whether to keep going, but I'm not supposed to tell anyone else. But I would be urged to, if I just posted about how I felt for eg.

It's so, so hard to keep going every day, and I really treasure the couple of people in my life who understand that.

I’m not sure if you don’t understand people’s points or choosing to ignore them but that won’t help you now, regardless.

Do you understand that holding on to this is really bad for you??

Even if, especially if, your perception is 100% accurate, if you don’t find a way to let go of this it will eat you up. And the only person that’s affecting is you.

And of course you should tell people that you’re feeling suicidal. You must!

Tell the right people. The people who can genuinely help you.

Theres never a good time to find out thst your friends arent really your friends.

Questionning why the badly behaved person is accepted whilst you are not will not help. Either these people think that is normal behaviour, or they simply like the other person more.

I remember sobbing outside someones door at uni during a mh crisis being ignored. I never did it again. Strangely they also embraced someone who i thought behaved badly. Eventually I found better friends. In the meantime I got counselling.

I have also been a fair weather friend. A guy in my friendship group is great when he is well but when he' s depressed I cant be around him. My mh isnt strong enough to cope with his negativity.

I know you say you needed kindness but for whatever reason they arent going to give it. They didnt just shut the door on you they at least called the police to get you some help. You dont understand it because you wouldnt have done it, but that doesnt mean that your way is right and theirs is wrong. Maybe they had no kindness left to give.

Please try and focus your energy on something more constructive. Can you take up a new interest, or set your self a project. A pp wrote a really good list of good coping mechanisms.

You are completely over dramatising this and minimising your behaviour. You weren't after a "natter". You said yourself you were hanging on by your fingernails. You went to them in desperation wanting support they didn't feel able or qualified to give. Instead of going away you reacted in such a way that they had to "bar" you entrance. This is not a normal reaction. They weren't being cold or not seeing you as human. It's not all about you. They were protecting their own wellbeing.

OP, are you ok?

MadMags I don't understand why people are not taking in my points, and don't seem to understand how these things work. Telling me to get professional help when I was already trying to etc. And how it feels and what happens when you get overwhelmed by horrible memories. It's so confusing because without kindness from people I'd not have got this far. Was very close to suicide a couple of years ago after a particularly unpleasant experience with the crisis team where I tried, yet again, to explain I needed some therapy and they just weren't interested, as usual just wanted to know what had caused the crisis NOW... the idea of everything mounting up until breaking point didn't seem to occur to them, no long-term thinking. (It's really changed since the ASD diagnosis, actually, they've started talking about therapy again and actually engaging with what I say, and even - shock! - being encouraging). I was told then I couldn't possibly have ASD and concerns swept aside. A friend kept me going by text. But people don't seem to understand the reality of trying to get help from MH services.

Do you understand that holding on to this is really bad for you??

I'm not doing it on purpose. If I could wipe my memory of it I would. But I've had nightmares and intrusive memories about it now and then (for some reason it particularly comes up in the spring) ever since. I get this with other things too. When I can think things through and understand them it helps make them go away, I think. But stuf like this that I just can't comprehend really bother me, because if I can't make sense of them, I've no way of avoiding the same thing/keeping myself safe in future. Or things where the answer is "people just do that, gotta live with it" also makes everything feel unsafe and sort of logically suicidal because I don't know if I can manage in this world, I don't seem designed for it.

Does that make sense?

I posted yesterday (erm two yesterday's ago...) because I was right in the middle of a horrible anxiety/intrusive memory thing. And haven't had this one for quite a while so hit harder I think.

Wolfie You weren't after a "natter". You said yourself you were hanging on by your fingernails.

Erm... these things aren't mutually exclusive. I was hanging on by my fingernails in terms of just about being able to walk down the street looking vaguely normal. I was on the border - as I now know - between anxiety type stuff and ASD shutdown (I tend to shutdown not meltdown). Sitting round having a natter with friends (who usually talked about really interesting, absorbing stuff) would have helped massively. I know from experience. Obviously I'd initially have been pretty quiet and just let their talking wash over me and gradually sort of come back to earth from the terror and been able to join in, so not a total standard natter but pretty close.

They weren't being cold or not seeing you as human

They were - the cold look in the eyes, that they dont care how much pain you're in, zero empathy, it's really frightening. I've had other times when people have insisted I go to hospital but they've had kindness in their eyes. It is totally dehumanising to look at someone in immense pain and not care one jot.

And for the millionth time - they had already decidied to block me out before I saw them. You seem determined to blame it on me - it's not normal to turn away a friend in need when the usual social group are hanging out together. Barring me is not normal behaviour, no - but they did it!
And I dont understand why you think their mental health is so precious is somehow damaged by being kind - as a group - to someone in need, whilst my mental health doesn't matter. They're protecting their "wellbeing" but sod my mental health. This makes me feel I'm not worth as much as other humans - their "choice" to be cruel matters more than my pain.

This is why I want to die, because I'm not made to fit in this world. Feel like I was made for one where people are more interdependent and help each other through this stuff. Eg. the friend I mentioned who texted yesterday also struggles, and sometimes we talk when both very low, and the acceptance is amazing and we both feel better for it.

Tattling is not 'making stuff up'.

Some people like to stir up drama. Some people like to bond with others by means of emotional vampirism. Some like the sense of power that delivering information or gossip or the small damning detail brings.

You may not have pegged your friend as this sort of person, but ask yourself who benefited when this information was shared? How has this information made you suffer?

This 'friend' of yours must surely know of your struggles, and must also know how much her account of the other friends' conversation would hurt you and how much you would let this information eat at you. She told you she herself was appalled, etc. Well you have only her word for that and there could have been other reasons not to stay in the area and not to continue to see the group. Maybe she was hoping to get her side of the story in before some other member of the group told you a different version of her role.

I can understand that if you are perhaps on the autism spectrum it might not occur to you that people are two faced and might have ulterior motives in delivering information.

But what she did in talking to you was not kind.

When it comes to emotional vampirism, beware of someone contacting you when she is low when she knows how low you are too. Suicidal talk can be contagious and so can low mood in someone with porous boundaries. Be very careful in dealing with this person, because your lack of boundaries is your mortal enemy here, and I am not sure you will be able to tell when you have taken on too much of someone else's issues. You pat yourself on the back for this trait but it is a symptom of a problem, not an unconditional good thing.

You accuse others of observing some hierarchy of problems or needs when responding. You claim people do not get exhausted from carrying others and that the response of the group of friends was motivated by hostility or the need to place themselves higher in a pecking order. But they do get exhausted. Even families get exhausted. Please try to put yourself in the shoes of others here and stop expecting everyone else to be you, or the version of you that you believe - this tendency on your part to expect others to behave as you believe you do is an indication that you have very weak personal boundaries.

People get exhausted. It's not because they are unkind or because they don't like you. It's because your problems are too much for them and they feel overwhelmed.

When you collapse on a doorstep crying, wailing, etc. people put on a face out of surprise or out of concern or out of fear - fear for your welbeing or fear for themselves - again, not everyone springs into positive action like you when something extraordinary happens, and the fact that you expect others to react as you say you do in an emergency speaks to your poor boundaries. You are not letting these people be themselves. You won't accept their right to their response. I fear you are projecting your own negative views of yourself onto them when you condemn them for rejecting you.

The reality is that some people have problems that can be helped. The drunk will sober up. The person who goes into a tailspin and ends up selling drugs can be helped. You on the other hand have described a cycle where you actively used other people in this group to provide company, fun plans, something to look forward to, in order to manage your feelings of anxiety and depression, etc. You claim that MH services are unavailable, cuts have taken a toll on services, and all of this is true.

But your GP can help you. GPs can prescribe anti depressants and anti anxiety medication.

OP I’ve been in your shoes. A coordinated rejection from the women I thought were my closest friends, seemingly because they couldn’t be bothered with me. It’s not you, it’s them. You aren’t worthless. I do think they’re selfish. You know you wouldn’t do this to someone else, close friend or not. You’re better off without them.

This was nearly a decade ago. Really you need to move on.
They couldn't cope with your demands and behaviour. You have no idea how draining and overwhelming it can be to have someone depend on you for their mental wellbeing. They couldn't cope with that. Your mental illness doesn't trump their right to admit that and stay away from you. They barred you because your behaviour was unreasonable. If they don't want you in the house you should've left. Not tried to get in. If someone tried to get in my house and wouldn't leave I would have to call the police too.
You need your own coping strategies.

You on the other hand have described a cycle where you actively used other people in this group to provide company, fun plans, something to look forward to, in order to manage your feelings of anxiety and depression, etc.

I thought this was the right thing to do. The crisis team actively encourage it. I don't know why you're trying to characterise it as "using" unless you think all people enjoying others company (and being quite happy to help them out etc) is somehow "using". Sure, it may have mattered to me more than most, but ALL people need friendships and community.

...was motivated by hostility or the need to place themselves higher in a pecking order.

I didn't say it was conscious, but there is definitely a kind of social order. It's not just in this, it's obvious in other things. I've seen it happen with other people, now just me - some people get away with murder and people will make all sorts of excuses for them, whilst others are scapegoaated. And all things inbetween.

The reality is that some people have problems that can be helped. The drunk will sober up. The person who goes into a tailspin and ends up selling drugs can be helped.

Why is choosing to drink somehow better than being in pain you can't help? Surely the person who's trying to get help from services, and not turning to drugs or drink, and trying to feel ok in company and happy to look after people as good as they get, somehow less deserving of support or more draining than someone who refuses to acknowledge their problem, won't get psych help, won't even claim benefits (because they don't trust "the system") so scrounges off others unnecessarily, and chooses to get smashed out of their head? (Even after you've staged an intervention, and had a weird night chasing them round the streets to stop them smashing cars, ending with them collapsed in a heap on the pavement with everyone gathered round sympathetically...) I don't understand the unfairness of it all.

math ...ask yourself who benefited when this information was shared? How has this information made you suffer?

Well it's better than just being totally confused about what was going on and what happened. What they did made me suffer, understanding what actually went on, and a sort of timeline actually helps me. Maybe that's an ASD thing? The fact that they sat round and made a decision makes more sense than the confusion I experienced when my friends were suddenly not friendly.

...how much you would let this information eat at you.

As I've mentioned, I don't "let" it eat at me. I have nightmares and flashbacks, I cannot actually help them. I would love to know how to lay this to rest. I think the problem is that it (and other things) actually changed me/my understanding/fear of the world, so I can't just cut it out because it had an effect, iyswim?

IME good connections with people help the fear and memories subside (in a general way), it's sort of healing, but apparently that's wrong so I'm not sure now.

Maybe she was hoping to get her side of the story in before some other member of the group told you a different version of her role.

She only told me this years after the event. I believe her, because she doesn't lie, she's always been thoughtful to others and fair. She values honesty, fairness, and kindness, as do I. I've seen how she reacts to others and how she talks about them. As mentioned, I'm almost certain she is on the spectrum herself, so lying and manipulation are just not her bag.

Wolfie They barred you because your behaviour was unreasonable.

They had already decided to blank me and bar me. I could have shown up happy and jolly and tney'd still have done it. You seem to think it's fundamentally ok to cut out someone in pain through no fault of their own, I do not. I cannot help having flashbacks, and i cannot help having ASD shutdowns. I do my best to manage things so it doesn't get that bad. I have sought - and continue to seek - professional help. When I cut myself off and felt ahamed for feeling bad that was apparently wrong too - what the hell am I supposed to think/do? I feel horribly guilty if I tell anyone how bad I feel, as a result of mpeople like you. Well done for kicking someone when they're down - basically we should just go kill ourselves and not bother all the perfect people like you with your selfish individualistic lives.

Hi OP, I have autism and PTSD (not from shitty treatment by “friends” but another incident of prolonged cruelty and abuse by others)

I understand how you feel. On several occasions I’ve been cut off by people with whom i had fairly close friendships through no fault of my own. I understand how this is compounded by people saying that you’ve misunderstood things because oooh you have autism so you must always get the wrong end of the stick Or people who don’t understand how the sectioning system is abused.

Some people are really, really nasty, unfortunately. But lots of others are not. And i understand the frustration of people saying “why dont you get some MH support” because THERE. IS. NONE. FOR. AUTISTIC. ADULTS. But please do pursue anything which comes up.

Please focus on making new friendships with nicer people, but remain on guard for the fact that most people really won’t ever try as hard to be kind or empathetic to others as autistic people like us do

I don’t think you’ve misunderstood becuase you’re autistic.

I think you are absolutely entitled to feel how you feel about what happened.

But I also think the reason you can’t let go of it is because you don’t understand how people can be so cruel for no reason.

Now, from their point of view it’s highly likely that, for whatever reason, they couldn’t continue to be friends with you. Maybe they found it too hard, too draining. Maybe the chats which didn’t seem like anything major to you, were actually quite hard for them. Maybe you talked a lot more about your problems and issues than you remember.

So, they probably did decide to cut you out which isn’t nice, but from their perspective was justified.

If you consider things in those terms, it might be easier to move on from. Becuase it wasn’t out of the blue for no reason, it was for a reason, even if you wouldn’t have done the same in that position.

I’m guessing all of this, of course. But that seems more likely than a group of women collectively turning evil at the same time, does it not?

Thanks mags that's really helpful actually.

And thanks ectoplasm, yes it's so frustrating when people seem to think services have a magic wand. And then services act as if your friends do...

math beware of someone contacting you when she is low when she knows how low you are too. Suicidal talk can be contagious and so can low mood in someone with porous boundaries. Be very careful in dealing with this person, because your lack of boundaries is your mortal enemy here, and I am not sure you will be able to tell when you have taken on too much of someone else's issues.

It's not like that at all. At least not in this instance. We both feel better for it, and it's more being able to be open and explore feelings without the other person freaking out or trying to immediately fix it. And then most o the conversation - and most of our conversations overall - are just about normal stuff, and laughing and joking and being quite philosophical about stuff cos we share the same humour and um, outlook? or something. It's more about a sort of... acceptance. It's ok to feel bad, type thing. Keeping someone company at the bottom of the deep dark well,as my friend put it.

Please, I totally want to give you a hug.

I completely understand what you're saying about how terrifying it is when you're confronted with that cold eyed rejection. And I'm really sorry they were such arse holes.

I know someone who I thought was a very kind soul. One of our friends was terminally ill, and he cut her dead. Just disappeared out of her life and turned up again at the funeral. He's not a bad person but it was a fucking shit thing to do. I'm just offering it as an example of the unexpected frailty of other people leading to what feels like betrayal. It happens to lots of people. It isn't OK.

You deserve good friends and more support.

I am the parent of an autistic child and would never have guessed how poor provision is before diagnosis. It's a disgrace for one of the top 10 richest countries in the world.

You actually sound incredibly able to understand and address your mental health. You just need receptive and responsive services.