I dont know what to do and its all getting worse

[elementofsurprise]

I dont think i'm supposed to need help, I mean, I can't expect people to care or be there for me. But I'm not coping alone so I'm unsure what to do now. I keep trying to tell myself it'll all be ok and just keep pressing on, but in reality im spending more and more time just weeping and barely leaving flat and my world is so restricted and everyting just seems harder and harder. I feel like im completely spearate from others, like we speak a different language or something. I dont know how to ask for help or who to ask. My local MH services are very very overstretched and don't offer longterm therapy etc, im not an imminent danger to myself or others which is all they cover. Yet my problems are complex and disabling so the primary care team wont see me either as also dont meet their remit.

For years I've not had proper friends, just people I know, well maybe proper friends in some ways but all misfits like me. That sounds nasty, its not meant to, I just mean not people I can rely on or massively similar etc. And mainly just people I hung out with rather than proper friends. Bit of a studently feel to it, if that makes sense - I felt quite dfferent because i'd mastered stuff like housework . I have loads of aqauintances who are more simiar to me in other ways but because i'm unemployed and perceived as 'mental' I don't fit in. My marginalisation and lonliness has made me weirder, too. I barely see anyone now, the odd social event but apart from that just one person who pops in to see me. I can do socialising, i'm good at parties and things at chatting to people, I just cant seem to make proper friends and as get older is harder. But that is not the point of my post, just explaining why I cant turn to anyone. Although I shouldn anyway.

I want to give up. Im so frightened. Im not suicidal exactly but Im scred im going to go properly mad, or already starting. Im doing Open Uni and focussing on that but finding concentration so hard. Getting more anxious and shaky. Keep just crying. I just do not know what to do after trying so hard with evetything for so long. Open uni seemed like a good idea but it means i go out even less as getting the work done. Anything I try to do to make things better just seems another mountin to climb and means i have to give up something else. I'm less capable by the day. I feel completely overhlemed with the horror and pain that has been my life, I feel sick with the mess of it all despite always trying so hard. I dont even know how to ask for help anymore because if I see anyone I automatically cover it all up. Not completely sucessfully, I tend to just seem a bit dozy instead of sad.

I have a GP appt tomorrow but its to discuss referral to CMHT he made. They have asked him not to refer me again, so I expect they've rejected it. Even if they havent they are convinced I have BPD. If I do, I dont present with it typically. All their focus is on getting me to act the part and not ask for any help (I dont self harm or anything). They see me not being in touch as a success, the pressure to just keep quiet and please them is immense. I cant tell anyone how it feels inside and if I do they dont listen, or think it's attention seeking or something. I just can't get them to take any notice of or help with the problems I actually have.

Im so sorry, I just dont know what to do. I dont know what I'm supposed to think, whether Im suppsoed to need help or what to do either way. Im so sorry.

So sad to read this. I have been thinking before replying as I am not a medic or psychologist. My daughter has MH problems, so I understand some of what you say

I totally sympathise with pleasing the health people. Some of us don't want them interfering, even when that goes against our best interests!

I wonder if you write, draw, paint or something else creative? I find writing helps me cope with problems, large and small. I definitely recommend it

Try to sleep, and I hope the appointment goes okay

Take care

Thank you. The appointment was mixed. CMHT have again rejected the referral. (As mentioned primary care say I'm too complex for their remit). The reason they give - I have it in writing - is that I will only be disappointed if they take me on. They try to imply that's my fault somehow, rather than the fact that they won't actually offer me any suitable therapy. (Oh yes, and I am unsuitable for their (limited) range of therapies - not that the therapies are unsuitable for me.)

I find it so upsetting that posters on here don't believe I can't get MH help.

However, I had to wait so long in the waiting room, getting more uncomfortable and anxious, that I hit brain-overload-disconnect thing. I don't know if this is just because I was not really in a fit state to be out and about, or is actually a symptom of ASD. But the GP saw it for the first time and so now I have another appt. to go over ASD assessment referral. This is very sad but good its getting done.

By chance an old friend knocked on my door earlier just before GPs, and is coming back in a bit, that was really nice.

Is it about cost really? Do the MH team put finances before people? I feel my daughter doesn't get the help she needs but maybe she doesn't accept it. I can't say

It's always good to see a friend

Do you know if your NHS trust area is particularly bad for mental health care? This may be entirely impossible, or something you've already looked at, but is it possible for you to move into a different NHS trust area? Im in an area that is much better than elsewhere. I was recently looking at moving to a different part of the county and I realised that the CMHT's in the city were awful and terribly underfunded. I realised that if we went just a couple of miles out of the city into the next Trust, services were much better.

Just like other healthcare, it's a postcode lottery. Some areas still have reasonable care---at least in comparison to the really bad parts of the country.

Sorry, should have also said that I believe funding is a huge part of it. I was PM'd by someone who works in a CMHT in the prospective new city. She warned me that the system was so underfunded in that area that they basically could only function as a "crisis" service and were always rejecting people for help because they could only accept the absolutely most severe cases & only when they were in crisis. She said there was no ongoing care for people. I'm quite grateful that I didn't get the job as I was terrified of leaving my really good care for somewhere like that.

I've heard it's particularly poor here, yes. But I don't have links with anywhere better - where I used to live services are also atrocious, and where my family are is far too expensive for me to live there (London!). Plus my flat now is cheaper than average and I can't drive and other stuff that means a move would need to be very compelling. Although I have almost no friends I do know a lot of people so can do some social type things when I can face it (go to gigs, the odd party etc) and don't want to lose that foothold.

Apparently ASD stuff is quite good round here though - I think there's limited support for adults but it is possible to get assessed which it isn't in many places. I either have ASD or issues that mimic it so I'd hope the investigation would give a clear picture if it is just MH issues - possibly might help getting treatment, compared to the rumour, misunderstanding and judgements that make up the current service view of me!

depend She's had a couple of years private counselling, lived in a supported community, has been diagnosed and seen by crisis teams and in/out of services since her teenage years. She has a diagnosis of BPD, that she rejects. Every HCP she meets is bad/conspiring against her

This is horrible and factually incorrect. I atempted to get help, aged 19, after trying for years to hide how awful I felt and being scared of getting into trouble for struggling. I was not able to access any treatment. Although services had me on their books, I had no actual appointments or treatment offered. They wouldn't tell me why, apart from vague accusatory stuff about "not being mentally ill". This was because they had decided, without proper assessment, that I had BPD and that wasnt counted s an illness or treated by the NHS pre-2007. I was also, on their word, barred from homelessness services. Even trying to join a voluntary project off my own bat, they wouldn't sign the form so I couldn't do it.

I have never lived in a supported community - not sure where that came from at all. I've never even lived in social housing, except a brief period in a homeless hostel aged 23. (An independent charity got involved and convinced them to let me in whilst they decided, after a few weeks they decided I wasn't mentally ill enough to be granted 'priority' status and asked me to leave.)

When life seemed to be better, and all the abusive partners and homelessness and so on seemed to be in the past, I randomly broke down. Couldn't work out why I was dissociating, crying etc when life was good. Seems to be a delayed trauma reaction to various experiences and trying to stuff all the bad feelings inside because I was told I was "attention seeking" if I expressed them.

I reject the diagnosis of BPD to some extent, because I dont actually fit the symptoms. They make assumptions about me based on what they expect, eg. they expect impulsiveness, self harm etc, which I do not display. I accept I my well be suffering the same kind of issues as other with the full on diagnosis, but the symptoms are different which makes a mockery of the whole thing.

I saw a private therapist for about 18 months. At first it was helpful, and it taught me to stand up for mysef like I am now. But got weird in last few months. She stopped remembering basic stuff about me, so it seemed like every session we were going back to the beginning again and not getting anywhere. She revealed her own experience of sexual abuse at an inappropriate time. She also kept expressing she was concerned and I needed more support. She finally accused me of rejecting support from services, and I lost it and shouted. Yes I shouldn't have, but given that so many dreadful experiences I have nightmares about happened because I was refused help, then she was basically ignoring a large part of what we'd talked about for months! In therapy you are open and emotionally vulnerable, having the therapist side with your abuser - psychiatry in this case - is horrific. (In hindsight I suspect services had claimed I'd rejected help, so she believed them. They have said the same to my GP but he knows what they are like).

Also, I have not been offered DBT. They made vague noises about it and I expressed my concerns but said I'd try it, but they never signed me up to a course. My concerns are that (the way they do it) it focusses on reducing self harm and stuff, which I dont need help with. I need help with the pain inside. I am unsure what you think I should do about that apart from magically not feel it? it is this pain which cripples my life.

How unpleasant and cruel you are to pick on someone whos suffering with your malicious post.

Also, depend, you are the one making misleading posts.

How is DBT that focuses on not dispalying distress helpful for someone who generally hides when distressed? That's a perfectly legitimate concern. Are you a professional who thinks patients should just put up and shut up?

I feel immense pain inside. I feel hopeless, overwhelmed, get confused and dissociate at points. This is what I struggle with. The way DBT is done round here does not address any of this stuff.

My GP - both GPs I've seen in fact - disagree with BPD diagnosis. One was utterly shocked by it, the other thinks PTSD and ASD are more likely.

There's a whole load of issues around BPD as a diagnosis in general, but the crucial thing is, I cant get help with the actual things I have a problem with if they use the BPD template.

Marchate Even with the best will in the world, MH teams have to put money before people. Because they will literally run out of money otherwise.

OP it sounds to me like you have tried to find outside sources to help make you feel better (NHS services etc) and for whatever reason, it isn't working.

I think you need to stop waiting and hoping for a diagnosis/treatment/counselling etc and decide to take action to help yourself.

You need to open up to the people around you. Don't keep trying to 'cover it up'. If you open up I think you will be surprised at the number of people who you already know who then tell you they have had similar experiences or feelings. Accept that you have some struggles that nobody is perfect and take the pressure off yourself in terms of social situations. Shared mental struggles can be a good way to bond and get to know people. We all have them to some extent!

Also, you need to help yourself feel strong. Are you physically fit? Can you join a running club or a gym class? Or do home videos like insanity? It's amazing what a difference it makes to your mental strength when you know you are physically strong. Your confidence will certainly benefit. You might also meet people who also exercise to aid mental health. If you open up to fellow runners that you are there because you want to get a grip on mental health, most regular exercise will totally hear you.

I hope you can find some peace. You sound like you've hit a real low. Stop waiting and wanting and take positive action on your own meant to empower, not judge or make you feel bad

I will only be disappointed if they take me on

I think this is very important, and echoes previous posts

onceMore I love aerobics videos on youtube . (Draw the curtains first!)

I had sort of got to the stage where I knew I wasn't going to get professional help, but I seem to be doing all the right things but not getting better, very frustrating and hopelessness-inducing. I try to look at all the tings I am doing and not think about all the stuff I can't do (job etc), but sometimes it hits me and seems so awful. And the horrible memories come on strong for a few days at a time and I just feel so alone with it all, and if I tell anyone or post here people are keen for me to seek professional help. I don't even know if it's wrong to wish someone cared at those points or what to do about it if I not supposed to feel like that...

But I saw old friend tonight and had a natter and that was really nice, feel more hopeful now.

Thanks

I'm really sorry you are feeling like this, what you've been through really touched my heart and it's not your fault for how you are feeling, and I'd say definitely focus on getting help for your mh and keep pushing to get all the support and help you need, I would also say it doesn't matter who your friends are or what their like,friends are friends and if your able to have a good laugh or chat with them isn't that what counts? Though if you wanted to make more friends then perhaps try go to some social clubs which are doing activities which you would enjoy like art and painting for example or see what's happening at your local leisure centre see if there's any classes which you'd be interested in, and try plan each day if you make a list of do able things you want to get done or achieve, by the end of completing that list you'll feel much better, hope this helps, sending hugs xx

OP of course it's not wrong to want someone to step up and help you

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think that. Sorry if I did.

I just meant while you are pushing forwards for outside help, do try to work on what you can do yourself.

Are there any local support groups you could join to find like-minded people?

Forgive me if it's already mentioned, but are you on any medication? If not, try to get that sorted. I'm on ADs and they help a lot.

Also, do you drink much alcohol? If yes, try to knock that on the head as I've found out from experience that it makes things worse not better.

Also make sure you are getting the right nutrition. It can make the world of difference to brain chemistry.

Stay strong

can't write much as fuzzy head.

Might be worth bearing in mind that you don't have to self harm to have BDP, likewise people can self harm who do not have BDP. Many (most?) people with the diagnosis have suffered abuse and there is a heck of a lot of overlap with PTSD.

I've read lots of your posts element but have never replied because you are very "picky" about responses and so there is a need to strike exactly the right note, or posters get criticised.

However there is one comment I want to make: I think all or most of us on this board suffer from mental illness or have a close relative/friend who is suffering. We tend to "reach out to each other" when we are feeling reasonably ok and sometimes when we are feeling mega crap. I know MN has been a huge help for me when the dark waters of depression swirl around me and pull me down..........

I always feel sorry for mothers of young children, who are struggling with caring for their kids and coping with a mental illness. I just don't know how they do it - when my bad days come I struggle to cope with 2 cats! Some of these women have husbands/partners who have no empathy at all and offer no help to the mentally ill woman. I am fortunate that my kids are grown and I have a supportive DP.

The thing I notice about you is that I have never seen you "reach out" to anyone else (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm sure you will) your posts are all about you and how hard done by you are - and how let down you are by the NHS. It's true that the NHS are no longer fit for purpose - not their fault - too little funding, too many patients. They're fire fighting really. Do you realise that many of us out here are suffering from mental illness too and some days feel suicidal and there is little the GP or Psych can do but give us drugs. I appreciate that you've had trauma in your past life and the diagnosis of BPD doesn't seem to fit you. I think it's something of a "catch all" when nothing else will do. But you have refused the therapy (DBA) surely it would be worth your while to try it - can't do any harm? Maybe it's PTSD and there is a therapy EMDR that many posters on here have found very helpful.

Psychologically I think you occupy the victim position (poor me, no one has it as bad as me...........) and when people try to "rescue" you, you can turn persecutor. (Persecutor/victim/rescuer) Eric Berne "I'm OK you're OK" if you're interested.

I realise you will report this post as I've been critical of you. You reported a post from Keema in the recent post, but you had no idea of the nature of her serious and enduring mental illness and caring for a child with SNs. I can say that because she posted to that effect. You made a very negative comment about hoping she didn't care for children who had been abused.

And I see another post has been deleted so I fully expect this one will too.

I don't wan to get into a debate with you because you never make it clear what you want and as I said above any replies to you have to be carefully worded or they will be reported. SO can I ask that you remember there are many of us out there struggling with various types of mental illness, and maybe you could try reaching out to others.

I can echo what Nana says about the NHS offering little more than drugs.

I have had mental health problems for over 20 years, and have had 3 stays in hospital, 2 of them very long.

The only therapy I have ever received on the NHS was a few sessions of family therapy when I was a teenager, which was useful because it meant that they found out there was no way I could go back home, and then a few sessions with a psychologist recently when they tried to find out if I had a personality disorder or not. Anything else I've organised myself. I think in the NHS you're looking for something that they do not provide- yes what they can offer is limited as it is what is deemed most clinically appropriate/cost effective for the issues that they come across the most. To be honest I think that sometimes what the NHS does offer via crisis team etc- dealing with the immediate problem of how you are feeling right now is actually quite helpful for the majority of the time. Sometimes dragging up the past is counter productive and can make people worse- I have had that experience and to be frank some things are better left alone. If you know what happened to you and that it is was wrong that is often enough. What matters is how you cope in the moment- right now. Ok things from the past might influence how you feel and behave, but it is how you deal with those feelings/thoughts/instrusive memories- what you choose to do that is important. I'm not saying it's easy, but there is always a choice.

I also agree with what a previous poster said about getting physically fit- I know myself and other people with MH issues find this to be absolutely essential. When I was in hospital they even had a gym and encouraged people to go. Exercise is not just good for your body and mind, it's also good socially- I've made some really good friends through being in a club for my particular chosen sport. Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't feel up to it, but generally I never regret going, and always regret not going.

Maybe it's time to draw a line under expecting help from the NHS and looking instead at the things you can do to make your life better. It sounds like you are already doing that to an extent- you've enrolled on a course (mental stimulation and good for employability), and you recognise that you are isolating yourself so you can change that.

Can I just make it clear that I didn't report any posts on this thread.

I kind of wish post was still here though so you could see I'm not overreacting, it was really bullying and nasty. As was keemas post on the other thread - she was picking on someone who's traumatised and belittling their experiences, that is really horrible. I hope she doesn't do it to anyone else whos vulnerable.

You are being very judgemental nana - am I not allowed to be hurt and devastated if someone dismisses my trauma as lies? Takes the piss out of me? You assume I must be overrecting, not that some posters have been malicious and cruel. Stop making assumptions about me. Why am I judged, why am I not accpeted as being in pain and strugging?

Nana - I haven't refused to have DBT. However, from the way they do it round it it strikes me as completely unhelpful for me. Focussing on reducing self harm, impulsiveness etc, whereas what I am disabled by is emotional pain, confusion/dissociating, and intrusive memories/nightmares.

I don't want to be 'rescued' (assumptions made cos of BPD label again?) I just feel very alone with it all and it helps when someone cares, or at least I dont have to put a face on and pretend to be ok. And others who understand helps too.

I'm not sure who else you think I should be reaching out to? I thought an anonymous forum was the right thing so I don't bother anyone I know. . I don't know what I'm supposed to do to get it right, I have to hide how I feel from everyone, the NHS won't/can't help, I've learnt to keep it quiet from friends so they don't get annoyed or distant. I thought I was doing the right thing to not bother anyone. I thought I was doing really well to hide it from people. This is what they expect and what the NHS expect.

danger To be honest I think that sometimes what the NHS does offer via crisis team etc- dealing with the immediate problem of how you are feeling right now is actually quite helpful for the majority of the time.

Really? I find I am now excellent at distraction but this doesn't help real life at all. And the slow grinding exhausted depression doesn't seem to lift either. It's just a case of forcing myself on everyday, and it seems to get harder. Distraction is no good for getting stuff done or going to work, where you have to concentrate and can't lose yourslef in something.

What am I supposed to choose to do about the intrusive memories and nightmares? I try to ignore them but end up curled up sobbing, re-living the original event. I can only block it out by dissociating. I can't concentrate when its like this. I dont know what I m supposed to do. Is there a menthod of making them go away or something? I thought therapy was the only thing. Others knowing whats happened to me and understnding and believeing me makes a difference but is very rare, especially as I know Im likely to be disbelieved so generally dont share.

Maybe it's time to draw a line under expecting help from the NHS and looking instead at the things you can do to make your life better.

Ive already written in my above post that I am doing all the things to try to make my life better but its not getting any better. I dont seem to be getting any more capable, im still dragging myself through the days. Adding more stuff 'to do' just means something else doesnt get done.

I also wrote in my above post that I'd given up getting NHS help, but the problem is if i seek support here or in rl people just push me towards services and accuse me if I try to explain why thats not a good idea.

Also I haven't 'isolated myself' as such. Friends have moved away, social situations have changed, as I mentioned in the OP I've not really had proper friends for years, not close ones I can open up to. I've always had to make an effort, always on the fringes of groups.

Im really confused why posters are writing things that ignore what i've written in my posts. Can you see that Im happy to give up on NHS help but its others who keep pushing me to 'seek help'? I end up having to keep explaining the same stuff again and again, like I am here. Cant I just have some support? If its wrong to need support, what am I supposed to do instead? I just feel like everything I do is wrong from someones point of view, someone will always tell me to seek help whilst another says not to, I dont know what im supposed to do! Ive posted here in desperation and people seem to act like im a just a bit low. Everyone wants me to go somewhere else, I thought I'd be safe in this forum but it seems another place I dont fit in. I am desperate. I have nowhere to turn.

We're still in the same cycle, you post, people respond, but the responses aren't acceptable. No-one here is qualified to help, I don't think posting here is helping you at all, you just get more distressed as every thread continues - I don't know what the answers are, but you're not going to find them here I'm afraid

Here's a thing I find really confusing and not sure how I am 'supposed' to feel...

I can say to myself that I am not inherently worth less than others (a damaging core belief of mine), that I didn't deserve the horrible things that have happened to me, that men shouldn't be allowed to abuse me etc etc. I can soothe myself and be gentle on myself and feel good about the things I have achieved that day/week/year despite struggling. But then if I do need some support, I seem to get massivey criticised, made to feel I'm not doing enough, blamed, disbelieved or problems minimised etc. and end up shrinking away and hiding in a ball of frightened pain cursing myself for existing.

It seems the stuff that is actually helpful is discouraged by the NHS and certain others, and instead I should berate myself and somehow magically manage to 'just be fine' spontaneously. I know how I'd treat someone else in my position and so try to do that for myself but others seem keen for me to self-flaggelate, have no compassion for trauma etc. It's as if how I feel and the struggles I have mean nothing, and instead the problem as others see it is that I show distress. If I coud keep the face on permanently so no-one knew, they'd all be happy with me (and this is how they do DBT round here btw). So I try to do that, to keep the act up, and end up posting here in the middle of the night and still certain posters want to lay into me.

Also, I wonder about having insight - I think people can take it the wrong way. So eg. if I posted here saying how I felt, but minimised previous trauma and was hard on myself, posters might be kind and supportive and point out that actually it was understandable i'd been affected by my past and not my fault etc etc.

Whereas having gained insight over the years and been helped to some extent in therapy (private), I am able to piece it together and have a certain amount of self compassion and things. So someone who's struggling and has to have the problem teased out of them and be reassured, is taken kindly, whereas someone who is struggling yet able to sort of be strong and say "I did not deserve this" is somehow seen as attention seeking or something. Perhaps its because people think strong people should not be hurting like that?

costa
I am desperate. You sound like you're annoyed at me and want me not to post. I have nowhere else to turn, I posted here, as I wrote in my comment (did you actually read it?) because I thought it was the right thing to do. I thought I was doing the right thing by not bothering the NHS or anyone I know.

It's horrible to feel so alone and not know where to turn and feel like I'm not welcome here either. I feel like a freak who doesn't fit in anywhere, like Im supposed to just go away and die because im so unwanted.

Isnt that clear from my OP? I dont know what to do or where to turn. I am trying my hardest to keep going every day and things are getting worse, not better.

What am I supposed to do? I have nowhere left to turn. Have some fucking compassion.

Also costa, and for gods sake actually take this in for once - if people post stuff that is clearly unhelpful and has ignored my posts, then of course im going to point it out.

People are advising stuff i've already tried, or accusing me of things that are factually incorrect (eg. refusing DBT). Of course I'm going to correct them!

I am aready doing all the right things to try to get better. I didnt post on here on a whim, but because i dont knw where to turn. I have written all this, what does it take for people to take it in??

element eventually intrusive memories and nightmares will pass. Nightmares are your brain's way of working through things. I had about 4 years of waking up several times a night screaming due to nightmares…my first significant relationship ended because of this, I ended up losing jobs due to the lack of sleep...then less times a week…now rarely, unless I'm extremely depressed or people have 'prodded' my history, asking questions (as I mentioned, the psychologist I saw was a particularly bad point).

With intrusive memories /thoughts there is little you can do, especially if you are already taking medication, apart from distracting yourself. Sometimes things are hard, and just take time. It takes a long time to get over things. And sometimes, as I've found recently, you get something else that takes a very long time to get over. The process is painful, and it is mostly lonely. But it ends, eventually. Ok, you can't concentrate etc (don't worry, neither can I!) but, I am told, eventually things get better. I'm meant to be doing a Msc…I can't even read a letter properly as I've got into plenty of trouble recently through just not understanding stuff that was sent to me in letters that I 'read' at least 20 times….I didn't watch TV- I was a complete bookworm. I can't even read a newspaper. But….that is just how it is at the moment. It's a hard time. It will end. At least it has before, and I've been told that it will again.

You said yourself that you have been in your flat doing OU stuff. Even though the OU stuff is positive, you said that it is making you stay in your flat=isolating yourself. I'm not saying that is a negative thing…it's just a 'thing' but again, you've taken it as negative. It seems like you take the negative, not the positive (that you are making steps to improve your life etc) focussing on that as another assault upon you personally.

I've got a CPN who tells me when I'm isolating myself, when I'm acting 'flat', or when I'm not reacting in a normal way. I find it useful to have someone who is external to my situation giving feedback, and I can then act on that feedback (e.g. when she said I was isolating myself I made plans to see people). But you don't seem to find anything we say useful, unless it is going along with some inner dialogue that you have!

What is it that you want from us Mumsnetters? We can only read, and respond, giving our own experience and offering suggestions according to what we know and have experienced. We accept you as you are, but you are asking to improve on your situation. We offer suggestions, but they are all completely wrong! What support are you expecting that we give, apart from a sympathetic ear? If you ask us to just listen to you, and say that actually, what you are saying is ok, we understand, but don't want any suggestions, I'm sure that we can organise something along those lines. But at the moment it feels like whatever we say is wrong.