Insomnia friends - I will sleep well tonight because I have told my unconscious I will- Part II

[madmouse]

Help we left it too late the old thread is full!!! Hope we all find this one!!!

I read that article this morning Becky. Im very interested in this and the work of a professor studd (because my problems only started post natally - nothing before that).

Another one to go in 'book of things that might help' which is literally bursting with newspaper cuttings.

Hope you all get lots of sleep tonight x

Hi arcadia welcome back! Glad to hear you had some great nights

midnightisaplace thank you for sharing what you did, I am so comforted to know that I am not alone trying to get off this mirtazapine.

My CPN says she has other patients who have got off mirtazapine no problem - so it obviously IS possible - but I suspect these people don't have sleep anxiety!!

Where are you up to now with your dose, did you say you take half (ie. 7.5?) That;s where I am at the moment. I got down to an eighth of a tablet (ridiculous I know) and was still sleeping, then 3 days after I stopped taking it BAM the insomnia was back with a vengeance. So frustrating!

becky thinks that the tiredness of early pregnancy may make me sleep anyway, am hopeful that I might actually be able to get off it if I get pregnant,

becky am thinking of you tonight. Hope you are relaxing right now xxx

Getdown, yes I'm on 7.5mg at the moment. I know from previous experience that I can sleep on 7.5mg every two days but don't feel ready to give that ago again yet.
On such a low dose I don't know if it is the mirtazapine which is making me sleep or whether it is acting as some sort of placebo effect
I am not yet in the position where I want to TCC. DH definately wants another and if you had asked me before I had DS, I would have said I wanted at least two DC. Now I am not sure! Do I want to put myself through this again? Am I capable of coming off mirtazapine to do so(Getdown this is not because I would be afraid of taking a low dose during pregnancy but because I would want to loose weight before TTC)?
One positive story though for mums with PND. My mother in law ended up in a mother and baby unit 30 years ago after she had DH (she must have been bad as mental health care was not as good then). However, she was absolutely fine after she had her second child two years later.

I'm about to give sleeping a try. I'm hoping sleep will be kind to me tonight and I will actually be able to relax and drift off, preferably without waking up at 4am!

Good luck to everyone else with the sleep!

Morning all, I did sleep, went to bed at 9.15pm and slept until 6.30am. But I always wake up the night after a good night after bad nights utterly depressed with the whole situation. I'm fed up of my life being ruled by my sleep. This sleep anxiety or insomnia or whatever rules me, not the other way around. It controls me and it is really grrrrrrr squared. I'm taking the DSs on holiday in October half term without DH but with three other friends and their children and yesterday I was saying to DH 'I can't go'. If I did this the DSs would be devastated, and my friends would not understand at all. I'm just so angry and annoyed at myself for being so weak and stupid. It really is ruining my life and I've had enough of it.

Sorry for being so negative, just had to get that off my chest. I just want to go back to bed and crawl under the duvet and feel sorry for myself but I can't - got to get everyone off to school.

Hi everyone,

So glad you slept becky - I do understand the feeling of frustration and depression following a spell of bad nights, but I think you just need to take each day (or each night) at a time and be glad that you slept! You will be able to function today and feel normal again. It?s really great that you?ve come through a few bad nights, and you were able to sleep on a Sunday night too ? the worst night of the week! Just take some deep breaths and be glad. One of the things we learnt at church yesterday was instead of focussing on what we don?t have, we should be grateful for what we do have. I think this applies to sleeping well too. I do know it?s very hard though. I am telling it to myself, as much as to you. I do often wish that things were the same as before I had DD ? sleeping well every night and able to cope with all of life?s stresses. But this is a new chapter and life would be very boring if it was just static. There?s no way I would go back to life without DD, even with all the mess and stress it?s brought and the havoc wreaked on my mental health!!

midnightisaplace - hello again! Yes I am on 7.5mg mirtazapine too and I do find I can sleep on that. I?m not very good at the alternate nights thing ? I have to take a dose every night, even if very small. Can I just ask, when you came off the mirtazapine and then deteriorated again, did you go straight back on the 15mg? Or did you start again at a lower dose? I went straight back on the 15 but it felt like all my hard work reducing gradually over many months was wasted. So am wondering whether I should have just gone back to a small dose. It?s so hard to know how much of it is placebo isn?t it? Though I don?t think it can all be placebo, because if so surely we would stop sleeping the first night we don?t take a dose, rather than 3 nights or a week later. I think there must be something about when the drug finally leaves your system.

I was encouraged by what you said about not feeling worried about taking a low dose in pregnancy. I am a natural worrier and do worry about taking it in pregnancy. However, maybe a low dose would be ok? The study they did on rats showed that even at 20x the normal dose, the rat babies still did not show abnormalities (although there were more still births). Also the studies on women who have taken it in pregnancy all seemed to take at least 30mg, and their babies were generally ok.
Sorry to hear you?ve had trouble with weight gain. I did notice my appetite increased at the start but it did seemed to settle down. Can you fit in any regular exercise you enjoy? We have a dog so I go for walks twice a day, and sometimes go jogging too. I find exercise does really help my mood and my sleep too.

GetDown that is so true. I'm constantly fighting a situation I don't like and it is making me feel worse. I think my period has just started a week early which explains the insomnia and my emotions over the last few days at least. I just wasn't thinking 'is this PMT'. My PMT since DS3 was born has been horrendous.

Hi everyone. Becky cheer up! You had a great night's sleep through without taking anything, I never get that, though I don't seem to have the really bad nights I have a broken one every night but am used to it now. Last night I didn't take anything to get off to sleep as I get to sleep easily but woke as usual at 3am. Tried to get back to sleep but couldn't and eventually took half a nytol and slept again, so had about 7 hours sleep or so but broken up. I'm going to try doing this rather than taking the pills every night before I go to sleep. I don't really mind being awake in the night for an hour or two now, as I always get back to sleep in the end. It's annoying, but it could be worse.

I don't think it's helpful to think 'why is this happening to me?' but I know it's hard not to. I love your idea GetDown that it makes life more interesting! I'm wondering if I find it a bit easier to accept, because I had a spell of really severe anxiety before in my early twenties (always slept well though!) which was like a living hell. Every waking moment I was on the verge of panic for literally weeks or even months. I was then ill, drained I suppose, for years afterwards. However I am glad it happened because I really got to the root of lots of my problems and moved on as a person. Also I can cope with anxiety much better after that so the sleep anxiety thing really doesn't get such a grip on me. I can just mentally shrug a bit and carry on. And I feel much better then (even after a bad night) than I did at that time.

I think exercise is the way to go. My yoga starts again this evening, and I did some of an exercise DVD yesterday afternoon, I even had a jog last week !, and I go swimming once or twice a week.

DD has her first settling in session at nursery this morning . A few months ago, even last week, I couldn't wait for her to go to nursery but now I feel really emotional about it. She is soooo gorgeous at the moment and I have started carrying her in a sling so we can be in contact all the time (she hates the buggy), it's lovely. Maybe I'm just feeling like this because I know I'm going to get a break soon? But anyway at least I am really enjoying her and like you say GetDown I wouldn't want my old life back (even the good nights!) if it meant not having her.

Hi Arcadia thanks for that! It's not me, it's the hormones .

I keep trying to adopt a 'it doesn't matter' approach and it does work for a while but then I forget what a bad night / bad day feels like and all the memories of how horrible January was for me come flooding back. And I start thinking 'it's happening again' even though I know I am not as I was then. The mind can be irrational. It's hard to get out of that thought spiral though.

I've got a dodgy tummy today but it could be just the anxiety over the weekend coming out and my period about to start. Hopefully I will feel a bit more cheerful now!!!

Arcadia I know that feeling about DD starting nursery. It is very, very strange at first. I cried all morning when both DS1 and DS2 started. I cried again when DS1 started school.

I've just put DS3 down for a nap and been cuddling him and kissing him and thinking that he is just the most lovely thing in the world and agreeing with you and GetDown I wouldn't want to go back to the time before he was here either, even though sleep was just this thing I did every night without thinking about it then.

I agree with what all of you have said about not wishing to go back to before DS was born. He is fantastic and I can't imagine life without him.

I also agree that exercise makes you feel better. However, I really find it hard to find the time to fit it in. Saying that, I find the time to post on here! I could easily be outside having a jog but instead I am cuddled up on the sofa with a mug of hot herbal tea(never used to drink the stuff before my sleep problems but its not so bad).
Getdown, the first time I failed to wean myself off the mirtazapine, i went straight back on 15mg as I was afraid that a smaller dose wouldn't work when my system was clear of it. This time I went back on 7.5mg and I was fine. Maybe the next time it will work!!!!!

Hi everyone just a quickie...
Becky hope you got through the day OK and am sure once your period starts you'll sleep well again (I seem to sleep really well now when I get my period - wierd as it disrupted it before DD).
Nursery was OK but feels strange, though I didn't leave her today - coinciding with DD starting to get some separation anxiety so not great timing! I'm a bit tearful about it at the moment.

Funny thing happened today. When I got out of my counselling session (around parenting issues) this afternoon I saw someone coming in with her baby - same age as DD - who I would have said was the most sorted, happy person that I know and I would have given her as an example of how things should have been with DD in the early days. Just goes to show you don't really know what goes on in people's lives. I don't know her that well but everything always seems great with her!

Another thing ... I keep forgetting to mention especially to you becky I really think the SJW are helping me a lot. I recently wacked up the dose up from one to three tablets in the evening (expensive but I get them three for two at Boots - and easy to swallow) and I really think it is making a massive difference to my mood and my sleep. I really think it's worth a try.

Hi all

Sorry I'm not good

Will be back later

Oh dear Madmouse. Hope you are OK. :(

Becky - Really pleased you slept well. Keep telling yourself you can do it again. Don't let the anxiety get to you - you can sleep well again tonight and you should be really pleased with yourself that you did last night.

I did sleep last night but pretty badly. I was really stressing about my day at work today so tossed and turned repeatedly until the alarm went off. Then today I felt really ill as this was the day that work would announce to people that I was leaving and that I had to lie as to why. I hate lying!

My Dr had advised me to take extra propranolol at night if i couldn't sleep but I was a bit bad today and took extra in the morning as I was worried that I was going to have a total anxiety attack. That's not good is it? In my defence I don't take them everyday - I hadn't taken them for about 4 days. It did help and for some reason once it had been announced I managed to stay positive about things and was actually in a good mood.

Now it's nearly that time of sleeping again.

Madmouse worried about you. Hope you are ok. Feel a bit better after reading your FB status - hoping you have a lovely calming day today so sending you lots of calming thoughts now xxxx

Wineonafridaynight you got through the day and that is good. I don't know what propranolol is but as you said, it was a special occasion (anyone would be very, very stressed about that) and it got you through the day.

I slept again last night. I can't seem to find the middle ground! Either hardly any sleep at all or just sleep zzzz. I'm trying, trying really hard to accept this as How Things Are now but I'm still fighting it guys and stamping my foot and saying Not Fair!!! I need to know how to be more accepting and happy about it and live with it without obsessing and fighting all the time.

Off to read in bed before getting everyone up for school now xx

Arcadia interesting about SJW. I still have a bottle of this stuff on the shelf, too scared to take it! I'm such a wuss when it comes to tablets. Anyone else tried SJW? It has been used to help with severe PMT I believe too - which I think is my problem.

Hi Becky I had a terrible night last night . Just when I thought I'd cracked it. I am feeling really fed up today. Feel really irritable and tired. It's going to be one of those get-through-the-day days, rather than a day to enjoy.
Stupid things kept me awake. One was that I've lost one of DD's toys and feel really upset and sad about it for some stupid reason (may be all connected to the feelings about her going to nursery). The other thing was DP being in a bad mood last night. When he's like that I feel unhappy and find it hard to sleep. I spoke to him about it this morning and he said it's because he is stressed at work. He may be made redundant next year .
When I have a night like that I'm ready to go back to the doctor but I suppose I just need to struggle on.

Arcadia every single time I have a bad night I lie in bed at 6am thinking 'I'm going to go back to the GP today and beg for something to help me'. Stressful situations can play havoc on anyone's sleep. I find that now any sort of stress and my sleep goes boobs up. Last weekend it was worrying about DS1 and DS3 having really chesty colds and worrying about two late nights in a row. You can get through today, like I coped at the weekend.

You are bound to feel strange about DD starting nursery. It's a big step! She'll have a lovely time though. DS1 loved going to 'kiddywinks' (he started at 1 year).

Thanks Becky I know what I'd say to you, but it's so wearing isn't it? I know I will get through today but it's so rubbish having to put up with this. I did everything last night - yoga class, relaxing bath, herbal tea, but just because I was bothered by a couple of things I couldn't sleep. God knows how I'll cope back at work, there is constant worry and stress there.

I am feeling strange about DD going to nursery . It's just the handing her over to people who don't know her yet and who don't love her that I find hard. She's still a baby, not even crawling or walking, and needs so much attention and affection at the moment.

Am also worried about DP and the potential redundancy. Obviously the money, but also the fact that he derives a lot of his self esteem from work. I know he would get really down if he was unemployed for a period. Also I am worried I may have to go full-time .

Am going to music group today then some shopping. How about everyone else? How are you madmouse?

madmouse hope you are ok? Sorry I didn?t see FB yesterday as I didn?t get a chance to go on the computer in the evening. What?s up? How are you?

arcadia - I am so sorry you had a bad night, you too wineonafridaynight. I used to take propranolol too (until I read that a side effect can be insomnia ? at which I panicked!!) I didn?t find it really helped my anxiety much though. I hope you can get through this difficult day with your work and telling them you are leaving. That must be very difficult. Try to think of it as a necessary step to getting out of there and then being free of them and that horrible stressful situation forever.

arcadia - your attitude sounds good that even though you had a bad night you are going to get through today and try and shrug it off. Sorry to hear about DD?s toy. Also that she is going through some separation anxiety and the starting nursery. It is really hard when they cry when you leave them. You feel horribly sad and guilty. My DD was the same, I think they ALL go through it at about that age. My DD took ages to settle at nursery. The first day I dropped her off, they called me and said I had to come and get her because she?d been crying for hours and they couldn?t make her stop!! I was so upset and nervous about starting back at work. But actually after a month or two she was totally fine. And I think it has actually done her a lot of good. She is much more confident and outgoing than I was at her age (my mum was a SAHM). Very chatty to adults etc. etc.

I?m sure work will help your sleep and your mood as well arcadia. I know it has helped me to have some child-free time.

becky glad you had a good night again/ I totally relate to the ?fighting against? and the ?it?s not fair? - I feel like this a lot. It?s such a struggle to accept that this is the way things are isn?t it? But I do think acceptance is part of the way to beat this thing.

I struggled a bit last night Still awake at midnight. I felt the panic start to rise. But something amazing happened. I decided not to panic. I lay there and thought ?I am not going to panic I?m not going to try to fall asleep, I am just going to relax?. And guess what? I fell asleep! I know I did, because DD wet the bed last night ? DH had to get up and deal with it and I didn?t hear a thing!

Hi everyone

Got back from Devon yesterday evening but was a bit too tired to post, wasn't feeling very creative. I've had a read through. In the end I had a good time away and my dds loved seeing their cousins, but I'm glad to be home and in my own bed again.

I went to see my doctor this morning for the usual chat about mood and ADs. She has suggested staying on 25mg Dosulepin as Winter is approaching and then reducing in March. She's left it up to me to decide what to do. If I like I can take 25mg every other day but she's concerned about me doing this at this time of year. I actually am not sure what to do. If I'm honest I suppose I thought she felt that I would be strong enough to come off.

I have to decide what I want to do. Do I come off just to prove her wrong and show myself I can do without them? I know this isn't a good reason and she rightly is worried that I could slide right down and then end up back on 100mg. I suppose I'm just a bit disappointed but also confused as to what step to take.

I asked my DH today if I've been easier to live with on them and he said yes.

I didn't sleep too badly whilst I was away but the first night at mum and dad's I probably drunk a bit too much wine so couldn't get to sleep and then ended up taking one of my promethazine tablets which didn't work all that well, probably because of the wine. The nights in the caravan were a bit restless and my youngest dd was in bed with me aswell as she had a nightmare the first night.

I suppose GetDown that if I reduce my dose further at this stage my sleep might get worse. I know you're struggling with a similar situation. Things are starting to get busier now the dds are back at school and perhaps I shouldn't put extra pressure on myself.

Still mulling things over. I think I just feel disappointed. Is there much point on being on such a low dose anyway?? I just don't know what to do:( Sorry to whinge.

hi orangeflutie welcome back! Glad the holiday was ok. How did it go with your parents in the end, was there any tension or was it ok?

Glad to hear that you didn't sleep to badly - even though your nights weren't perfect you sound quite relaxed about it, which is just the right way to be.

Yes I am in a similar position to you - just on a v low dose of AD now and wondering what the best thing to do is. It's hard isn't it? You either stay on them, feeling fine, and wondering if you are taking a drug for nothing... or you come off it, risk having a crisis and ending up being on a high dose again. At the moment, personally, I think I'm just going to stay on my low dose.

Is there a particular reason why you want to be off the dosulepin, or do you just want to be rid of drugs? I totally relate to just wanting to be off ADs.

Oh my word ladies, how comforting it is to meet you all :) I've only joined Mumsnet today, so am new to the game. I have spent the last 3 hours reading all of your comments! I wish I could say that my sleep problems were a passing phase, but they've been going on for nearly 5 years now :(
I was sexually abused as a child also, and I believe that is where a lot of my problems stem from... I also feel that a lot of the issues that we all seem to have, may come from adrenal exhaustion. I don't think any of us are totally aware just how mentally exhausting having kids can be! We may feel tired etc, but are we really aware of the impact it is having on our nervous systems? My son is now 17, and it has been a rough ride for me. I was on my own with him for 11 years, and I can't begin to explain how horrendous that was :( If I was to tell you all the gory details of my life I would be here for about 6 months! I am 47, and 6 years ago I had my first panic attack.....since then my sleep has become hideous without a zopiclone. Night terrors, jumping out of my bed feeling that I am choking to death :(
Things took a turn for the worse a few months ago when I found out that my son is gay, and that he was mixing with paedophiles! I think that was the straw which broke the camels back. I now have swollen glands all over my body, and I have terrible problems breathing due to congestion, and a deviated septum.
I have had hormone level tests, and I am peri-menopausal, which makes everything sooo much worse.
I reallydon't know where to turn anymore as my GP will never understand, or help me. She just wants to put me on an SSRI or a tricyclic AD. I can't take them though as I have low blood platelets, and they cause me to bleed internally. Anyone got any ideas for a very desperate woman.....? I am also becoming immune to the zopiclone :(
As so many of you have said, I'm not depressed, I'm b*** exhausted! :) So sorry if I've gone on a bit, it's just so good to find kindred spirits xx

Hi GetDown I think I do want to be rid of drugs actually but it looks like it's going to take a lot longer than I thought and I feel a bit sad, disappointed and frustrated about it all.

I'm starting to worry about not being able to come off them. I really want to be free of depression. Perhaps I'm trying to do too much too soon. After seeing my doctor today I felt quite sad and I normally feel better for seeing her. I think what has got me down is I think, her feeling that I'm not ready to reduce more. However at the beginning she seemed quite positive about it.

Sorry kibbutz83 crossed posts, didn't mean to ignore you. Welcome to mumsnet x

Sorry all didn't mean to worry anyone. Have hit a very rough patch that I didn't see coming and that I can't really see the way out of tonight. My friend's been here tonight as he was worried and I tried to open up about what's going on but only half succeeded. Think he's still worried - going to try and get some sleep. Didn't post on here as I have nothing to contribute.